Anders Posted December 4, 2022 Share Posted December 4, 2022 Wats irritating is that i bought both of these from a Norwegian seller that has been buying and selling German militaria since the frist half of the 90s, and I thought he's name and experience would mean the original wares.. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Posted December 4, 2022 Share Posted December 4, 2022 I would't go quite that drastic. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Andrew Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 maker looks like 583, never came across that maker before which is another bad sign. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 If you are not convinced, you should send the item back and get a refund, to which you are legally entitled. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 Known makers of EK: 1 Deschler & Sohn, München 2 C.E. Juncker, Berlin 3 Wilhelm Deumer, Lüdenscheid 4 Steinhauer & Lück, Lüdenscheid 5 Hermann Wernstein, Jena-Lobstedt 6 Fritz Zimmermann, Stuttgart 7 Paul Meybauer, Berlin 8 Ferdinand Hoffstätter, Bonn 9 Liefergemeinschaft Pforzheimer Schmuckhandwerker, Pforzheim 10 Förster & Barth, Pforzheim 11 Großmann & Co., Wien 12 Frank & Reif, Stuttgart 13 Gustav Brehmer, Markneukirchen 14 L.Christian Lauer, Nürnberg 15 Friedrich Orth, Wien 16 Alois Rettenmeyer, Schwäbisch Gmünd 17 unbekannt 18 Karl Wurster K.G., Markneukirchen 19 E. Ferdinand Weidmann, Frankfurt am Main 20 C.F. Zimmermann, Pforzheim 21 Gebrüder Godet & Co., Berlin 22 Boerger & Co., Berlin 23 Arbeitsgemeinschaft für Heeresbedarf i.d. Graveur- u. Ziselierinnung, Berlin 24 Arbeitsgemeinschaft der Hanauer Plakettenhersteller, Hanau 25 Arbeitsgemeinschaft der Graveur-, Gold- und Silberschmiedeinnungen, Hanau 26 B.H. Mayer, Pforzheim 27 Anton Schenkl, Wien 28 Eugen Schmiedehäusler, Pforzheim 29 Hauptmünzamt Berlin 30 Hauptmünzamt Wien 31 Hans Gnad, Wien 32 Wilhelm Hobacher, Wien 33 Friedrich Linden, Lüdenscheid 34 Wilhelm Annetsberger, München 35 F.W. Assmann & Söhne, Lüdenscheid 36 Bury & Leonhard, Hanau 37 Adolf Baumeister, Lüdenscheid 38 unbekannt 39 Rudolf Berge, Gablonz 40 Berg & Nolte, Lüdenscheid 41 Gebrüder Bender, Oberstein 42 Biedermann & Co., Oberkassel bei Bonn 43 Julius Bauer & Söhne, Zella-Mehlis 44 Jakob Bengel, Idar-Oberstein 45 Franz Jungwirth, Wien 46 Hans Doppler, Wela Oberdonau 47 Erhardt & Söhne A.G., Schwäbisch-Gmünd 48 Richard Feix, Gablonz 49 Josef Feix & Söhne, Gablonz 50 Karl Gschiermeister, Wien 51 Eduard Görlach & Söhne, Gablonz 52 Gottlieb & Wagner, Idar-Oberstein 53 Glaser & Söhne, Dresden 54 unbekannt 55 J.E. Hammer & Söhne, Geringswald 56 Robert Hauschild, Pforzheim 57 Karl Hensler, Pforzheim 58 Artur Jökel & Co., Gablonz 59 Louis Keller, Oberstein 60 Katz & Deyhle, Pforzheim 61 Rudolf A. Karneth & Söhne, Gablonz 62 Kerbach & Osterhelt, Dresden 63 Franz Klast & Söhne, Gablonz 64 Gottlieb Friedrich Kech & Sohn, Pforzheim 65 Klein & Quenzer, Idar-Oberstein 66 Friedrich Keller, Oberstein 67 Robert H. Kreisel, Gablonz 68 Alfred Knobloch, Gablonz 69 Alois Klammer, Innsbruck 70 Lind & Meyrer, Oberstein 71 Rudolf Leukert, Gablonz 72 Franz Lipp, Pforzheim 73 Franz Manert, Gablonz 74 Carl Maurer & Sohn, Oberstein 75 unbekannt 76 Ernst L. Müller, Pforzheim 77 Hauptmünzamt München 78 Gustav Miksch, Gablonz 79 unbekannt 80 G.H. Osang, Dresden 81 Overhoff & Cle, Lüdenscheid 82 Augustin Prager, Gablonz 83 Emil Peukert, Gablonz 84 Carl Poellath, Schrobenhausen 85 Julius Pietsch, Gablonz 86 Paulmann & Crone, Lüdenscheid 87 Roman Palme, Gablonz 88 Werner Redo, Saarlautern 89 Rudolf Richter, Schlag bei Gablonz 90 August F. Richter KG, Hamburg 91 Josef Rössler & Sohn, Gablonz 92 Josef Rückert & Sohn, Gablonz 93 Richard Simm & Söhne, Gablonz 94 unbekannt 95 Adolf Scholze, Grünwald 96 unbekannt 97 unbekannt 98 Rudolf Souval, Wien 99 Schwertner & Cie, Granz Eggenberg 100 Rudolf Wächter & Lange, Mittweida 101 Rudolf Tam, Gablonz 102 Philipp Turks, Wien 103 August Tam, Gablonz 104 Heinrich Ulbrichst, Kaufing 105 Heinricht Vogt, Pforzheim 106 Gebrüder Schneider, Wien 107 Karl Wild, Hamburg 108 Arno Wallpach, Salzburg 109 Walter & Henlein, Gablonz 110 Otto Zappe, Gablonz 111 Ziemer & Söhne, Oberstein 112 Argentorwerke Rust & Hetzel, Wien 113 Hermann Aurich, Dresden 114 Ludwig Bertsch, Karlsruhe 115 unbekannt 116 Funcke & Brüninghaus, Lüdenscheid 117 Hugo Lang, Wiesenthal 118 August Menz & Sohn, Wien 119 unbekannt 120 Franz Petzl, Wien 121 unbekannt 122 J.J. Stahl, Straßburg 123 Hassinger & Co., Straßburg 124 Rudolf Schanes, Wien 125 Eugen Gauss, Pforzheim 126 Eduard Hahn, Oberstein 127 Moritz Hausch AG, Pforzheim 128 S.Jablonski & Co., Posen 129 Fritz Kohm, Pforzheim 130 Wilhelm Schröder & Co., Lüdenscheid 131 Heinrich Wander, Gablonz 132 Franz Reischauer, Idar-Oberstein 133 unbekannt 134 Otto Klein, Hanau 135 Julius Moser, Oberstein 136 J.Wagner & Sohn, Berlin 137 J.H. Werner, Berlin 138 Julius Maurer, Oberstein 139 Hymmen & Co., Lüdenscheid 140 Schauerte & Hohfeld, Lüdenscheid 141 Sohni, Heubach & Co. Oberstein 142 A.D.Schwerdt, Stuttgart LDO: L/10 Deschler & Sohn, München L/11 Wilhelm Deumer, Lüdenscheid L/12 C.E. Juncker, Berlin L/13 Paul Meybauer, Berlin L/14 Friedrich Orth, Wien L/15 Otto Schickle, Pforzheim L/16 Steinhauer & Lück, Lüdenscheid L/17 Hermann Wernstein, Jena-Lobstedt L/18 B.H. Mayer, Pforzheim L/19 Ferdinand Hoffstätter, Bonn L/21 Förster & Barth, Pforzheim L/22 Glaser & Sohn, Dresden L/23 Julius Maurer, Oberstein L/24 Fritz Zimmermann, Stuttgart L/25 A.E. Kachert, Wien L/26 Klein & Quenzer, Idar-Oberstein L/50 Gebrüder Godet & Co., Berlin L/51 E.Ferdinand Weidmann, Frankfurt am Main L/52 C.F. Zimmermann, Pforzheim L/53 Hymmen & Co., Lüdenscheid L/54 Schauerte & Höhfeld, Lüdenscheid L/55 Rudolf Wächter & Lange, Mittweida L/56 Funcke & Brüninghaus, Lüdenscheid L/57 Boerger & Co., Berlin L/58 Rudolf Souval, Wien L/59 Alois Rettenmeyer, Schwäbisch-Gmünd L/60 Gustav Brehmer, Markneukirchen L/61 Friedrich Linden, Lüdenscheid L/62 Werner Redo, Saarlautern L/63 G.H. Osang, Dresden L/64 F.W. Assmann & Söhne, Lüdenscheid L/65 Franke & Co., Lüdenscheid L/66 A.D. Schwerdt, Stuttgart 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anders Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 Its several years ago I bought them, I just rediscovers them now after moving to a new house. The ek second class i was told that it came from a big lot that was found in Germany up in an attic. There was cases full of nos ek 2 class that was never given out. Someone hid it away during the final months / weeks of the war and it was then rediscovered somwere in the year 2000's 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anders Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 That seller is probaly the only seller in Norway of collectibles of ww2, and the only one that has been active for a greate number of years, I'm just telling that as a warning to others that might buy from him. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anders Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 Personally I'm not that worried about the ring is not completely welded together as I can see even Helmut Weitze sells ek2 with the same ring problem, but I can't justify the stamp. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anders Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 Whats the diffrence with those round 3 on ek2 crosses ? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Andrew Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 The Iron Cross called the "round 3" differs from the normal version in the fact it is round on top instead of flat. They are much scarcer to find than the standard versions so are more valuable and made by by Deschler & Sohn. round 3 standard 3 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anders Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 Did all of the round 3 have a stamp on the ring or were there some that was not ? The reason i ask is becouse i have a seller that sells an round 3 with an "unclear ring stamp" and therfor sold as unstamped. Is it with Iron Crosses the same way as with mumei samurai swords that experts can attribute an unmarked work to a sertain makers? Im not only talking about the round 3 here but as in general? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Andrew Posted December 6, 2022 Share Posted December 6, 2022 Yes you will come across round 3's without stamps on the ring as you would with standard Iron Crosses, with the only way to tell who the maker is, is by judging it by it's characteristics and comparing it to other known makers. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ward Posted January 7, 2023 Share Posted January 7, 2023 Hi everyone, new to the page and I’m just looking for some opinions. My dad passed away last year aged 86, he gave me this many years ago. He told me his uncle returned from the war and gave it to him on his return and I’m pretty confident he wouldn’t deceive me !! It’s magnetic, I couldn’t find any makers markings on the cross or clasp only the identifying things are on the inside of the box. Pretty sure you’ll confirm the clasp doesn’t belong in the box. Thanks in advance 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Andrew Posted January 7, 2023 Share Posted January 7, 2023 Hi Paul, again this Iron cross appears to be a post war Souval. However as I have said before the jury is still out on these crosses as Souval certainly made them during the war, the retainer is the thing which collectors can not agree. The wire type retainers are agreed to be wartime but the type you have posted is considered to be post war, some collectors believe them to be war time. Up until now no definitive answer is known. I don't doubt for a moment your uncle brought it back from the war as even the post war Souvals were produced just after the war. You are correct the clasp does not belong in the box and would be issued in it's own presentation box. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewCollect Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 Good evening and thanks for all the work you put in here. I was looking at the piece below and was wondering if you had any thoughts. Not enough info for me to make a decision unfortunately so wondering if there is anything you could add here. It is maker marked however. I was mostly concerned with how fresh the paint appeared initially. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Andrew Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 Looks like a good Gustav Brehmer maker marked 13, this is the first type, later crosses by Gustav Brehmer had the swastika on a slight pedestal. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisschubert92 Posted April 3, 2023 Share Posted April 3, 2023 I have a 1813 n on back side it says 1914 cross and the hasp says M&S can anyine tell me if its real or fake 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom Posted April 5, 2023 Share Posted April 5, 2023 Hello Chris, you need to post some pictures 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex_Collector Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 Greetings all, I'm hoping someone can help me verify the authenticity of an Iron Cross First Class and Iron Cross Second Class. Both were purchased from online dealers around 1998/1999. I did not retain the seller info. Both items have been in climate-controlled storage for the past 24 years, and the condition is the same as when originally purchased. I'll start with the First Class award. No documentation or case was included in the purchase, and no provenance was provided. The center is magnetic. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex_Collector Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 Here is the Iron Cross Second Class award. As mentioned above, this was purchased from an online seller around 1998/99. The award document was included with the purchase - for whatever that is worth, but no provenance was provided outside of that. Maker's mark stamped in ring - "113". The center is magnetic. The black paint is immaculate on both sides, and the ribbon looks like it was made yesterday. Again, any help verifying the authenticity is appreciated. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Andrew Posted June 3, 2023 Share Posted June 3, 2023 Iron cross first class is fake, poor detail and artificial ageing. Iron Cross 2nd class looks OK the maker mark is for Hermann Aurich of Dresden 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex_Collector Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 On 03/06/2023 at 14:45, Kenny Andrew said: Iron cross first class is fake, poor detail and artificial ageing. Iron Cross 2nd class looks OK the maker mark is for Hermann Aurich of Dresden Thank you Kenny for your input on this. I appreciate it. For the first class award, can you elaborate on what you mean when you say "poor detail"? Also, is there any indication as to what kind of copy/fake this is? I know little about the counterfeit market and would like to understand as much about the medal as possible. Thanks again for any insights you can provide. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich_26 Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 Huge thank you to all the experts in this thread and site in general! This has been a very interesting read and here I am with a cross for your review, Magnetic core - yes Solid rings - yes, small one damaged 3 piece construction - yes Maker stamps - no The 'ribbing' on the internal corners concerns me the most Images below: Thanks again! -RR 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Andrew Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 1 hour ago, Ex_Collector said: Thank you Kenny for your input on this. I appreciate it. For the first class award, can you elaborate on what you mean when you say "poor detail"? Also, is there any indication as to what kind of copy/fake this is? I know little about the counterfeit market and would like to understand as much about the medal as possible. Thanks again for any insights you can provide. L/54 with the stamp above the retaining catch is a known copy unfortunately, the quality of the beading is not what you would expect to see on a private purchase award. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Andrew Posted June 5, 2023 Share Posted June 5, 2023 1 hour ago, Rich_26 said: Huge thank you to all the experts in this thread and site in general! This has been a very interesting read and here I am with a cross for your review, Magnetic core - yes Solid rings - yes, small one damaged 3 piece construction - yes Maker stamps - no The 'ribbing' on the internal corners concerns me the most Images below: Thanks again! -RR That's a strange one Rich, don't know if it's just the photos but the frame looks as if it has a chrome finish, is the frame silver? The ribbon appears to be original. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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