More information please - Is this helmet legit?

[rankfilm]

Hello everybody.

I'm new to the forum and have joined to get some advice as I'm interested in building up a collection of helmets but I'm aware there are a number of fakes out there - I hope you knowledgeable folks will be able so give me some advice before I spend my hard earned cash.

I've recently been offered this German WW2 red cross helmet but I'm aware that this is a rather sought after variant of the Stahlhelm. Can anyone help determine if it is legit or a fake. The makers mark (Q) is at the back of the helmet. Is the longer number something to do with the smelting? I'm suspicious of the liner as it looks rather pristine.

Much appreciated

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rankfilm]

I'd also like to get an opinion on the following

Is there anyway to tell the difference between the post war M35 and the helmets that were reappropriated from WW2?

I've attached an example I came across when reading, as to my limited eye it looks identical to a wartime example (apart from a nicer/cleaner liner).

Am I right in thinking this is a post war BGS helmet?

 

Hope someone can help enlighten me. Thanks again.

 

 

 

 

[Fritz]

The second helmet is probably a refurbished wartime shell stamped Q62, which stands for the maker Quist and 62 for the shell size. The colouring seems to match the early uniforms of the Bundesgrenzschutz in this particular shade of green. The liner is of course, postwar with the typical multi hole ventilation, also the rubber head pad is a postwar feature. The Bundesgrenzschutz were later issued with new helmets with a new liner system, no longer requiring the three exterior fixing studs.

The first helmet looks like a typical beaded-type Luftschutz helmet of the 2nd pattern, which replaced the earlier "gladiator" style, the lining is an inferior wartime quality, being often made of thin cotton-based waxcloth, due to leather shortages. The dark blue finish looks original and would apply to Luftschutz.  Either the red cross has been crudely applied to the front, or the original Luftschutz emblem has been defaced or removed in this way.  Compare with other examples.  This helmet would not strike me as being Red Cross, as their helmets usually bore their own pattern of insignia on both sides of the helmet. Shown here is an example of the first pattern Luftschutz helmet, the paintwork being dark blue

[rankfilm]

That's great thanks for the info it is much appreciated.

[Kenny Andrew]

Hi Rank,

welcome to the forum, as Fritz says both original helmets but not very scare, don't pay too much for them in that condition    

[rankfilm]

Thanks Kenny, I'm leaning towards the BGS helmet as I like the idea of the wartime shell being reappropriated (and I'm too cheap to buy an original ww2 ).

 

In your opinion, what would be a reasonable price?

[Kenny Andrew]

It's not really my era, although there seems to be a growing interest in post war militaria. I would guess somewhere between £50 and £100. If you were going to spend more than that I think you would be wanting one in better condition.    

[rankfilm]

Thanks again for the advice.

[Kenny Andrew]

You might be better going for this one on our site, it's all original and wartime, you could also pay for it in a couple of installments if that helps your budget. Also it's been over painted gray so possibly used by Volkstrum in the final days.  

https://www.treasurebunker.co.uk/PBSCProduct.asp?ItmID=11399205   

[rankfilm]

Thanks, I'll have a look at what's for sale - it's certainly something to consider judging by the number of unscrupulous sellers out there.

[rankfilm]

On 03/05/2018 at 12:55, Fritz said:

The second helmet is probably a refurbished wartime shell stamped Q62, which stands for the maker Quist and 62 for the shell size. The colouring seems to match the early uniforms of the Bundesgrenzschutz in this particular shade of green. The liner is of course, postwar with the typical multi hole ventilation, also the rubber head pad is a postwar feature. The Bundesgrenzschutz were later issued with new helmets with a new liner system, no longer requiring the three exterior fixing studs.

The first helmet looks like a typical beaded-type Luftschutz helmet of the 2nd pattern, which replaced the earlier "gladiator" style, the lining is an inferior wartime quality, being often made of thin cotton-based waxcloth, due to leather shortages. The dark blue finish looks original and would apply to Luftschutz.  Either the red cross has been crudely applied to the front, or the original Luftschutz emblem has been defaced or removed in this way.  Compare with other examples.  This helmet would not strike me as being Red Cross, as their helmets usually bore their own pattern of insignia on both sides of the helmet. Shown here is an example of the first pattern Luftschutz helmet, the paintwork being dark blue

Hi guys,

In the end I didn't go for the BGS one but the post about the Luftschutz helmet got me reading about the "German home front" so to speak. Again I want to pick your brains to learn more if that's ok?

 I know that the gladiator helmet was privately sold to the public. There seems to be a lot of these style helmets on the market but so many of them seem to be repainted. Are they collectable (if so what is reasonable to pay) even resprayed and should they be stamped like the combat helmets. I've seen examples with the sticker on the back like the one above and one's that have no sticker - is this an indication of there purpose/authenticity.

I find it particularly telling that most I have seen have been defaced to remove the swastika and wonder if this was done soon after the war or later.

Thanks for your help in advance.

[Fritz]

I wouldn't go for a repainted helmet, unless the original paintwork underneath is still in a reasonable condition. Then the false paint can be carefully removed using a commercial paint-stripper, being carefull not to damage the original finish.  Most of the Luftschutz helmets on the market are of the "gladiator" pattern, and are still reasonably priced.  I would tend to favourise one with a good original decal to the front.
At the end of the war, due to the Allied occupation and the de-nazification, all swastikas were removed, and everything that reminded of the NSDAP was banned or confiscated. Possession of any form of weapon could be punishable by death, especially in the American, French and Russian zones. Most people got rid of any form of evidence as quickly as they could, even papers and books were disposed of.
During the Allied occupation every house would have been thorougly searched and anything of "interest" confiscated or looted as "souvenirs", the Russian zone was probably the worse zone to be in, thousands of people, who were still capable of work were often abducted, even snatched from the street and deported to labour camps in Russia, either never to return or at the latest, 1955. Conditions in the early postwar days were chaotic and life could be very dangerous, there was no guarantee for survival. Thousands of those liberated from the concentration camps, "Displaced Persons", often without shelter, roamed smaller towns and localities, often armed (terrorised) and simply took from the population what they needed. This situation became so acute, that the Allied authorities had to take measures to prevent crime and civil disorder, and also recruited  auxilliary civil police forces under their supervision - "Hilfspolizei"

The difference between a civil helmet and a military helmet is apparent. Civil helmets as worn by Luftschutz and fire brigades were only of a lightweight steel and were not suited to battlefield conditions.

[rankfilm]

Wow that's very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to give me more detail, much appreciated.

[Kenny Andrew]

I agree with Fritz, never buy a repainted helmet unless it's very,very cheap or you want it for re-enactment. Always buy the best condition you can afford and make sure it's original  

[rankfilm]

Great I'll avoid the repainted ones (don't fancy painstakingly removing paint). How much should something like the gladiator helmet in the post above cost? (approximately of course).  Thanks

[Kenny Andrew]

A Luftschutz M38 gladiator style helmet with original paint, liner and decal in nice condition would cost approximately £295 - £395  

[rankfilm]

Thanks Kenny