indian waffen ss Indian Waffen SS

[Ian_Kel]

The most unusual WW2 photograph I ever owned.

It was a tiny photograph, a late war snap printed on (from memory) Agfa paper but the quality of the camera lens must have been, for its time, so good, so much detail when enlarged.

[Kenny Andrew]

That is rare, don't think I've ever seen a photo of the Indian Waffen SS before 

[Ian_Kel]

I think I bought it from what used to be called "Chelsea Militaria"  It was found in a box full of unrelated, mixed WW2 German photo's, all stripped from albums. I sold it onto a guy (for the same price I bought it for) who had then been interviewing remaining members of the Indian volunteer Btns, both German & Indian members. He made me enlarged copies of the wee photo for me keep. He eventually published a book on the subject, Martin Bamber, "For Free India". 

[Ian_Kel]

I think that's the only photo to have surfaced showing the Waffen SS issued tiger's head collar patch as having being issued and worn during the war (if on a limited scale)?

Do you remember the author David Littlejohn of the Foreign Legions of the Third Reich books? He once posted me photographs he took of what appeared to be a genuine, untouched since WW2 officers tunic to an Untersturmfuhrer. The tunic was in the possession of a German doctor, if my memories correct the doctor had treated the officer for something minor, appendicitis or suchlike right at the end of the war and took the tunic off him for the guys own safety.

Anyway the tunic had the tiger's head collar patch, the leaping tiger sleeve shield, red piped artillery boards, a Russian front ribbon and the wee bullion SS sow-on patch below the breast pocket, so a German national attached to the Indian unit.

I've still got the photo's somewhere (really poor quality though, it was back in the day before digital camera and email so everything was photocopied and put through the post).

I'll see if I can find them.

[Kenny Andrew]

Yes I remember David Littlejohn he was a personal friend of mine, in fact I think he wrote the forward to one of my printed catalogues we mentioned in the other post. If you can find the photo it would be great to see and worth putting this in it's own thread on the Indian SS.   

[Ian_Kel]

Hi Kenny, Here's the photographs David sent me of the tunic, it must have been 20 or more years ago  - sorry about the quality of them, not too great and made worse by me photographing them in a badly lit kitchen just now.

David was sure the tunic was original and had no reason to doubt the doctors story.

I  "think" he discovered the existence of the tunic sometime after publishing his Foreign Legion series? And as far as I know he never got the chance to update the info in his book.

[Kenny Andrew]

Wow that's a rare tunic, if it was from anyone else I would have said it was put together, however the fact it was from David Littlejohn is good enough for me, very nice indeed and mega rare.    

[Fritz]

One mistake here, the SS runes below the left pocket were never worn on SS tunics (and certainly never by Indian volunteers), only by police, who were members of the SS !

[Kenny Andrew]

 That's a fair point Fritz, however the runes were not solely for the use of the Police. The SS members runic breast insignia was established by order of the Reichsfuhrer SS in 1943, the runic breast badge was intended for SS members serving in Waffen SS units using a special unit collar tab insignia who otherwise would have been authorized to wear the runic collar insignia. Among the Waffen SS units who did not qualify to wear the SS runic collar tab were 7. SS Freiwillingen "Prinz Eugen", 4. SS Polizei Panzer Grenadier Division, 11. SS Freiwillingen Panzer Grenadier Division "Nordland" and others, so the fact the Indian SS collar insignia did not have the runes would make the wearing of the runic breast insignia correct for this tunic.

[Ian_Kel]

Quite a well known photograph shown here. I "think" it shows surrendered personnel of the Legion taken at the end of the war? Check out the belt buckle worn by the guy in the centre of the photo.

[Ian_Kel]

As stated by Kenny, as a non Reich German Waffen SS unit Indian Legion personnel (both Indian and attached German) weren't authorised to wear the SS rune unit collar patch. Bar the top photo, the few photographs which exist which show Indian and German unit personnel in W-SS uniform show them wearing the (correct) blank SS unit collar patch (probably issued before the official tiger's head patch was available).

 

I can only guess that the number of personnel issued with the official unit collar patch was minuscule(?).

[Ian_Kel]

Here's the two late war, studio taken(?), portrait photographs showing Indian Legion personnel in W-SS uniform, both wearing the "correct" blank SS unit collar patch in leu of the official tiger's head unit patch. One guy an Indian national, the other a German national (named as SS Obersturmfuhrer Rolf Schakert, Kommandeur, Stabskompanie). Both guys appear to be wearing the leaping tiger arm shield insignia.

Both these photographs are copied from Martin Bamber's "For Free India" (if they infringe copyright law (I'm not sure?) please delete, Kenny).

[Fritz]

Not necessary, the photos are over 70 years old and free of copyright, "gemeinfrei"

[Ian_Kel]

Thanks for that Fritz, I'm never overly sure when it comes to copyright law and hope a simple credit to the author of the publication at least gives a nod to original source or ownership.

As for the Indian Legion SS collar patch, I've only ever seen that single period photograph of it in wear, the photographs of the Untersturmfuhrer's tunic supplied by David Littlejohn and one single, tunic removed, tiger's head collar patch which was in the collection of Bob Hritz. He'd purchased it at a US collectors fair many years back and held onto it thinking it could well be original. From memory it was very similar in design to the unit patch shown on the David Littlejohn tunic, high quality, highly detailed machine embroidery (other ranks, not officer metallic thread). Nothing like the simplified, stylised, mock-up tiger's head patch illustrated on the early 1945 "SS-Map" of proposed "foreign" unit insignia. Trying frantically to see if I kept copy photographs of the patch.

[Kenny Andrew]

keep looking Ian, would be great to see if you can find them 

[Ian_Kel]

I kept it for years, stored on one of those digital CD's. I may have "chucked it out" during a tidy-up.

[Kenny Andrew]

I know the feeling Ian, you will probably find it when you least expect it. If you do find it, remember to post it here and at least you will know where it is then.     

[Ian_Kel]

I think the photo I had of the other ranks Indian Legion collar patch owned by Bob Hritz is long lost (must have chucked the CD out in a clear out) but found a version of it that someone else managed to save on the internet. It's exactly the same collar patch as owned by Bob, pretty sure it probably was his photo which someone else has kept then published on the web.

Top left in the photo. As I remember Bob said he bought the patch cheaply at a gun show in the US (many years back), pinned to a dealers board. He reckoned it looked & felt original, issued and used condition, the only one he'd ever seen. The quality of the embroidery's top class.

It's not impossible that Bob's other ranks collar patch is a match for the patch on the officer's tunic photographed by David Littlejohn, photos taken at a different angle and the officers patch with added silver edge cording?