John333 Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Andrew Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 Top shield is original, better pictures are needed of the lower version. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John333 Posted February 16, 2021 Author Share Posted February 16, 2021 Yes this is the problem I’m having with the second also. I’ve asked the dealer if he would be kind enough to send me some photos which are clearer. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Andrew Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 It's really hard to make out the details on the lower shield, always difficult with shields at the best of times, but when the picture is blurred it makes it even harder. Also there are so many different makers and as they are not maker marked you have to judge it by eye alone, mix in the fakes and it is quite a time consuming process. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John333 Posted February 16, 2021 Author Share Posted February 16, 2021 Hopefully he will send me new betters photos if not I will go for the top one 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John333 Posted February 16, 2021 Author Share Posted February 16, 2021 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John333 Posted February 16, 2021 Author Share Posted February 16, 2021 2 hours ago, kenny andrew said: It's really hard to make out the details on the lower shield, always difficult with shields at the best of times, but when the picture is blurred it makes it even harder. Also there are so many different makers and as they are not maker marked you have to judge it by eye alone, mix in the fakes and it is quite a time consuming process. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Andrew Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 Yes that one's ok too, amazing the difference a decent picture can make, in fact I now prefer that one to the top one. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 Very difficult to tell with some shields. Most Krim shields were toned, brass coated iron, otherwise made of zink with a thin bronze finish. Sometimes the backing will give it away. A proper cloth shield is machine cut, you will find many inaccurately cut. Paper backings are always suspect, sometimes these will have an ink stamp of the maker mark, but that is no criterium. Stitch marks in the backing are also not always an indicator of originality, most originals have lost their paper backing. Shields have been faked and copied for many years now. In the 1960s good copies were available, which had apparently been produced using the original dies. The example in your photo looks as though it has never been stitched on a uniform, although it does have the correct shape and form. Do you have a picture of the reverse of the shield? 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John333 Posted February 17, 2021 Author Share Posted February 17, 2021 It does have paper on the back of it .. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 A sort of paper backing - has obviously never been on a uniform. Not really keen on the appearance of the paper. Of course, a paper backing does not make it automaticly a fake, but it can make one suspicious. There are also badges, where a collector has re-applied a new cloth backing, at the best using scraps of original cloth, these being hand or scissor cut. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John333 Posted February 17, 2021 Author Share Posted February 17, 2021 So if you had to commit you’d say it was a fake ? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 I couldn't say for certain. The front "looks" ok, the cloth is good if unissued, not enthralled about the paper. Here is my example, not mint, as worn. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John333 Posted February 17, 2021 Author Share Posted February 17, 2021 Is this one a safer bet ? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 I've seen lots with that sort of paper backing, rust-stained and with stitch-marks, that is no guarantee... The shield itself should never be made of brass, they were iron or zink, with a brass coloured coating. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Andrew Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 The paper does look a bit odd but I think the badge is OK. Not keen on the stitch holes on the first badge, looks like someone has just stuck pin holes in it , no sign of where the thread has worn against the paper, but maybe that's just the photo. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John333 Posted February 17, 2021 Author Share Posted February 17, 2021 Thanks for the help guys, I guess I’ll wait for something I’m 100% on. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John333 Posted February 18, 2021 Author Share Posted February 18, 2021 What’s your thoughts on this one guys v 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 All looks very nice, even some thread left, somehow the shield looks too nice and perfect, and too brassy, too clean. the shield looks as though it is made of brass, should not be, might be wrong, just the photo. When buying something like this, it is better to see it close up, a magnet test will reveal if it is iron or not. Zink, of course, will not respond to a magnet, but the shield above is clearly not Zink. You should not buy on sources like Ebay, etc. Best to buy from a reputable source, and face-to-face, it may cost a bit more, but better than a "cheap deal". Always take a small magnet with you. I would also avoid paypal! I would say, this one looks reasonable, I don't know about the backing, the cloth also looks good, can't say if this was applied at a later stage, i.e., more recently, but certainly orderly. Generally looks like an unworn piece, but the shield has some loss of the brass finish, the iron showing through (which is ok), so it may be older than the cloth itself. I would tend to take another look at the reverse of this shield. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John333 Posted February 18, 2021 Author Share Posted February 18, 2021 All 3 are from reputable dealers, what’s your opinion of the last one I posted it shows signs of wear etc .. is the shield itself good though ? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 I don't think I would go for that one, take a look at the eagle's head, not very distinct around the eyes, etc., compare with other examples. Even honest dealers can be mistaken. It just doesn't look convincing enough. As I mentioned, you often find shields where someone has renewed or replaced the backing. Always better to get an original set. On the other hand, you may find a shield complete with the original metal backing plate, but without the backing cloth., still better than nothing, and you can see if the pins are correct, they should be flat. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Andrew Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Third shield is OK , no problem about the eye, that is a characteristic of Wilhelm Deumer of Ludenscheid, also the stitching holes on this one show the type of wear I would expect. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John333 Posted February 18, 2021 Author Share Posted February 18, 2021 Yes I was literally about to write this after doing a bit of research i believe it denotes Deumer too. I prefer this to the others only because of shows signs of wear which i prefer personally which my medals and awards. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Andrew Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 I would go with the Deumer one too 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 This one would be a safe bet, magnetic, it has a very unusual backing, which you won't find often. You can see this has been removed from a uniform. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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