Kenny Andrew Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Greg , reckon you might be the best person to ask about this item , or anybody else if they know, as it has us totally confused.Initially we thought it was a fire brigade cap with fire brigade badges on it , then on further research we found out it was possibly an American Legion cap although the Chef de Gare 1970 confused us further as apparently it means station master? which could be fire brigade or railway?When we researched the American legion on one site it appeared all the American legion ranks were actually railway ranks such as station master , conductor etc..??? is this correct ? The American legion publication we looked at even had a locomotive as the logo and many adverts in it featured locomotives? and to top all this all the ranks of the American Legion seem to be French???So is this cap fire brigade , railways or American legion ? The American legion stuff has me totally confused also 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 In the USA there is the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW). My family was all VFW so I don't know as much about the AL side. However both had caps similar to these. I'll try to dig out my Grandfathers VFW hat for photos as I have it here somewhere. Hat pins are popular in the USA and do not necessarily denote exact ranks or rules of wearing. My grandfathers are covered in pins related to veterans and causes. So in this case it could be either that the veteran was also a former or current firefighter or that the AL lodge is setup inside the Tarrytown Fire Dept. That all said.. what is it? I think I know I highly doubt it is rail road, if it was I would expect a pill box style hat and beside the rail roads never were as popular for this kind of stuff as in Europe. The look of the hat and the numbers look like FD Battalion numbers to me. Checking with the Tarrytown FD in NY they have a Company 4 Engine 80 which matches the numbers. So that said I'd bet it is an American FD hat from the Tarrytown, NY FD, Co 4 eng 80 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 And if you want to see the trucks... all is at: http://www.tarrytownfd.org/ Interesting that the pin is for Conqueror Hook 7 Ladder which is 1/79 and 4/80 is Riverside Hose Company. Possibly the person served at both houses.. just a guess though 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leon21 Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Forty & Eight is a National Organization originally formed as a Honor Society for members of the American Legion who had served in WW1. It's tradition comes from WW1 when American soldiers were shipped to the front in French railroad boxcars which held 40 men and 8 horses. Primarily focused on charitable service providing scholarships to deserving nursing students, The Nurses Training Program aims to encourage nursing education and student achievement. Here's a photo of a presentation which took place at junior Fire Company No1 were Ms Harne serves as a Proessional Firefighter/Emergency Medical Technician 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leon21 Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 So 537 Fire Department Post No N.Y. I'd say. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STUKA STEVE Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 So is this an American legion cap and Fire dept cap combined? if 40/8 represents the Honour society as Leon says and the other side the fire dept? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 ooo, now this is intriguing! I had thought american legion a bit but discounted it because most American Legion caps are not grey with red piping. However the numbers which are used by the Tarrytown FD made me think it more likely is a fire cap. See: http://emblem.legion.org/uniform_caps/legion.asp A initial search puts american Legion post 537 in New London, Minnesota which is quite far from Tarrytown NY where the Tarrytown post is 267 So... Evidence either way... Fire Cap: Fire Departments usually have red in Uniforms The 2 pins are Tarrytown, NY fire department and are of actual engine houses The 4/80 is an established company in the Tarrytown FD Chef de Gare means station master and there are station masters in Fire Houses 537 is the mystery to me, perhaps a badge number for the fire fighter? American Legion: Chef de Gare is a name that the AL would use 537 is a post no where near Tarrytown NY 40/8 is an honour society with the AL There is a photo of the AL in the exact cap - however the photo could be a Fire Fighter representative on the left, girl getting the award in center and the AL presenter on the right as he has a blue city or state AL cap Still doesn't explain the Tarrytown FD unless the veteran liked FD pins or had some connection I feel the evidence is more toward the FD but I'll admit there can be some doubt in this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leon21 Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Here's a photo of Robert Jacobson on the occasion of his Election as 40 and 8 Chef De Gare of Locale 240 for the 2013 - 2014 year. I'm thinking Branch or Lodge or Company?. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Legion post numbers on the cap would mean Post 537 in NY... only thing is I cannot find a Post 537 in NY. There should only be a single post 537 in the entire USA and Post numbers were nominal as Posts were often named after people... oddly I can seem to find a 537 in Mooresville North Carolina and Morgantown PA and the one in MN previously mentioned... meaning the American Legion REALLY needs to learn how to assign numbers better... so assuming the Legion re-uses numbers in every state cause they cannot count I checked the website for the New York American Legion. Now they list a Post 535 and a Post 538 but no 536 and 537 http://nylegion.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Post-Address-List.pdf..... so either the Legion is really really really bad at counting or the 2 missing Posts are now defunct or merged with others as Veteran numbers decreased. I'll admit the numbers can add up very well for explaining an American Legion connection but I cannot date if the legion ever had a grey cap with red piping or if a 537 NY was def. around. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 And digging deeper... Sons of the American Legion DO have a grey cap http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/29370-hats-off-to-the-veteran/ Only again no 537 associated to NY that I can reference... SAL seem to follow same rule as AL posts and would be a subset of them. So AL Post 537 would have a SAL Post 537 for children of vets in the post. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leon21 Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Of all the caps on the web page Greg I'm sure what Kenny has is the one in Illustration ten. La Societe Des 40 Hommes et 8 Chavaux Better known as the 40 & 8- has a WW1 French Army style cap blue lettering and piping indicate a post level member. ( Red, white and gold lettering and piping combinations on blue caps indicate Past Officers from District level to National level.) Looking again at Kenny's photo's the last photo looks more blue than grey, this is also the only cap that has the 40 & 8 numbers. So I think Kenny's cap is a Past Officer's cap hence the date 1970 and the Red lettering and piping with a Fire Department connection. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Andrew Posted July 4, 2014 Author Share Posted July 4, 2014 yes just noticed it is the exact same as the French WW1 cap , thanks , I think I know what we have now 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 agreed I think we have found it 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 and just to confirm quickly the 40/8 has a Locale 537 registered in New York City. While I cannot find an address registered, NYC is just next to Tarrytown NY region which is just north of NYC which puts a far closer relation with the FD pins. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Andrew Posted July 4, 2014 Author Share Posted July 4, 2014 thanks Greg, I'm glad I'm not a collector of these items, they seem rather complicated to say the least 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Vetran groups in the US are a bit crazy to follow... very small collecting community though, that is likely to change as WWII vets die and their stuff goes up for sale, was the same with GAR stuff - today it is a cheap way to get into Civil War collecting 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 As promised, a second cap, this time VFW just to show American vets like pins.... here is the history... My Grandfather was born in Glasgow in 1917 and emigrated to the USA when 11. By WWII he had US citizenship and volunteered for the Army Air Force. He was stationed in the US and the Pacific Theater as a cook and a small arms repairer. After the war he was fairly active in various civic groups, most prominent in the VFW and the Elks Club. He wore his VFW cap all the time to various events right up to his death. The family was going to throw it out but I grabbed it before they could do that. I have not touched a thing on it since so it is 100% original as he wore it. The cap is a VFW Life Member for post 7198 New Jersey The pins are: (left to right) New Jersey VFW Robert E Wallace Commander in Chief NJ 1991-1992 memorial pin VFW-VFW Aux MOC-MOCA (Military Order of the Cootie) New Jersey 1993-1994 NJ Elks Remember POW/MIA In NJ we care POW/MIA VFW Amphitheater Veterans Stage Menlo Park 100 Years VFW 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leon21 Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 What a stunning cap that is Greg. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Andrew Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 excellent piece of family history Greg, and a great move to grab it before it was binned 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 Helau! To all Karnevals Narren and Gecken - in Nordrhein-Westfalen people celebrate Karneval around February each year, a crazy old tradition, wearing fantastic costumes and Narren-Mützen 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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