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My Three Uncles, Victoria Cross Winner, Cameronian and Panzer Soldier


Kenny Andrew

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That's pretty amazing stuff, so the whole of the 52nd Lowland Infantry Division including the 6th Cameronians were in the 2nd BEF . It's quite sad I could tell you almost every major battle the Germans were involved in, but knew nothing about this, worse still that my uncle was there. So the next question is what was the objective of the 2nd BEF and did they achieve it? Can't find the paybook at the moment, that last picture I posted of it was from the old forum, I think it may be in the shop and will look tomorrow. In the meantime I'll tell you what the old Cameronian told me.

He was in the shop just before Christmas and was asking us about getting his medals mounted. When he told Steve he was in the Cameronians Steve told him my uncle was also in them. He then came over and spoke to me. He was in for a long time and talked non stop about his exploits I think he was just happy someone was interested in what he had done. As I say we get allot of Cameronians in the shop but mostly those who were in after WW2. We get very few war veterans now and the few we have had were always from different Battalions of the Cameronians. 

His name was Jimmy and not only was he a wartime Cameronian but he was from the 6th Battalion the same battalion as my Uncle. When he collected his medals he brought in a group photo of his unit which I photocopied, not sure if my uncle is on it or not, I think he may be.I gave it to my Aunt to see if she could recognise him in the photo. I think it was maybe a sign from my uncle as she passed away shortly after this. I have the photo copy here and will post it later.

Jimmy talked allot that day but the three main things I remember were. Telling me about when he went to France after Dunkirk, I thought he had maybe got confused but according to you he was totally correct. 

Later in the war he left the Cameronians and joined another unit. In this unit he was guarding some German Officers. A German Officer recognised his Scottish accent and became friendly with him. He told Jimmy that he used to live in Clarkston Glasgow and asked Jimmy when he was back in Glasgow if he could visit his neigbour as he had left a photo album with him which he would like back. Jimmy went to Clarkston and asked the neigbour for the album. The neigbour a Doctor phoned the Police and Jimmy was arrested apparently the German was a spy. Jimmy was interogated and told them all about the German. He was apparently very high ranking. Jimmy never found out what happened to the officer but feared the worst and felt guilty he had got him into trouble. He still remembered his name and I did a search on the internet for the German but couldn't find anything. Jimmy hoped he hadn't been shot. 

At the end of the war Jimmy was sitting drinking tea in a guardhouse in Germany when there was a loud knock on the door he opened the door to see two large Germans and a smaller man with an eye patch who wanted to hand themselves in. Jimmy said he didn't have the facilties to accept there surrender and went back to drink his tea. A few days later he found out who the German with the eye patch was, it was than Heinrich Himmler!

I'm sure Jimmy could tell us allot more, I still have his phone number from when he got his medals mounted, so may contact him again. Its good to capture these moments as I'm sure very few people would have known about these events if he hadn't told me.

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I think that the objectives of the 2nd BEF was to stiffen the resolve of the French, prove to them that we were in the fight for the long run and ultimately defeat the German advance push it back out of France and the Low Countries and defeat Hitler. I think it's safe to say it failed to achieve any of it's objectives. Jimmy's stories sound great. If you are ever getting him back in the shop for a cuppa let me know and I'll pop along as well. He is the sort of chap you need to speak to if you were to do a forgotten voices of WWII book. 

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I think that's a great idea. I'm sure Dave will too, he will be back from France in a week or two. We could tape the conversation or even film it then use the info for the book and add the film clip to the website.  

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Found the pay book, unlike German pay books there does not seem to be that much information in it. Let me know if you spot anything interesting that I may have missed. I did see he was given new upper teeth which ties in with my mother who said he was shot twice, once in the leg and once through his mouth when shouting orders. Apparently if his mouth had not been open it would have killed him. The bullet through his mouth and out of the other side. I don't remember him being disfigured in any way so he was very lucky. 

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 I see some of the ranks seem a bit odd, also they call the 39-45 star the 39-43 star? 

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  • 2 weeks later...

The page attached to page 20 is interesting. It shows his service with the colours. You can see that the 52nd Div spent 7 Days in the BEF. Any chance of unfolding it for his later service?  

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In regard to the Ranks. I think the W stands for War Service ie the Appointment was for the duration of the War. I have a Group to a 4th KOSB man who was a sergeant for the duration of the War. Those ranks with Lance in front of them were appointments and not paid substantive ranks.

Lance Corporal

Corporal

War Service Corporal

Lance Sergeant

Sergeant

War Service Sergeant

The 39/43 Star is a new one to me as well

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I love the way that most of the British stuff can be traced back. I really have to start the research on my grandfathers war record, though time at the moment is pretty limited. 

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 I thought the ranks were a bit strange, India was the last entry, where he was a British officer commanding Gurkhas, who he said were great people, nothing after that. 

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Hello all, I'm back now, the above information is fascinating. I think the meeting with Jimmy will be great and I would like to come too. I will try and source a digital video camera and audio recorder. Kenny please let me know when you arrange this. Having read this post this morning I met a colleague of mine whose father was a Sergeant Major in the Cameronians, fought at Anzio and was taken prisoner. Graham has a lot of stuff about his dad including his daughter's school project where his father recounted a lot of his wartime experiences. His daughter won a prize for this. Keep me posted, please. 

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 Dave, this is all getting a bit uncanny, I have another uncle, he was a 2nd Lt. in the Cameronians and must have been in the same battalion as your friends Dad, in fact there is a very good chance they would have known each other. Sadly he was killed in action at the Anzio beachhead. My mother gave me his name a few years ago and we looked him up on the Commonwealth graves site and found him , will ask my mum for the info again and post the details here. 

Also like your friend my cousin did a school project on my uncle Jack when he was still alive ,they still have an audio tape of him describing his experiences during the war. I will get the tape and if you would like to take notes from it we can print it here. I would do it myself but think it might be a bit strange to hear my uncles voice after all these years. 

I think we should aim for about a month from now for our meeting with Jimmy. Once you get the equipment sorted let me know and I'll phone Jimmy. Probably better to arrange it was after work about 5 o'clock as we don't want customers coming in when we are trying to film it. 

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The Cameronians are having a re-union parade and gathering at the Douglas Estate, Castle Douglas on Sunday 11 May 2008. I'll try and get some pictures done when I am there.

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This is all sounding good. I'm glad to get info on British subjects especially a great Scottish regiment. My dad always said that the Cameronians were disbanded after a political decision by a Labour goverment due to their fierce fighting reputation and their actions in post war Germany. They seemingly caused a lot of fights with the civilian population and other military units. Anybody know anything about this? 

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Yes Dave under the reforms of the army in the 1967 Defence White Paper the Cameronians chose to disband rather than amalgamate with another regiment in the Lowland Brigade. The Cameronians were disbanded on 14 May 1968 at Douglas Castle, South Lanarkshire in the presence of the Duke of Hamilton.

 

Here is another book from my uncle the history of the 6th Batt. of the Cameronians, in fact he is mentioned in it for receiving the C in C Certificate from Field Marshal Montgomery. How many men approx. would be in each of the battalions? 

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I think it would be 700 - 900 men. This may vary. I don't have the official British TOE or OOB to hand.  

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Thanks Dave,  does anybody know how many Battalions were in the Cameronians? If they had nine battalions then that would be almost 10,000 men and with the other Scottish Regiments that would be over 100,000 men from Scotland. 

Spoke to my Mother tonight and she gave me the name of my fourth and final Uncle Henry who was killed in the Anzio landings, here is his Certificate from the Commonwealth War Graves. Its sad to think he is still in Italy to this day. 

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Kenny, I believe battalions were raised to replace those who had taken casualties. Few Battalions were up to peacetime or theoretical strengths. I did a rough calculation based on a platoon of 30 - 40 men: a company has 4-5 platoons and a battalion 4-5 companies. HQ sections would be added to the latter two. This gave an answer similar to what I had in my memory but others may have better info to hand.  

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The nominal strength of a British Battalion at that time was 33 Officers and 780 Other Ranks. The Cameronians had the following Battalions in WWII:

1st - India & Burma

2nd - France, Belgium, Egypt, Italy & NW Europe

6th - France & NW Europe

7th - France & NW Europe

9th - NW Europe

10th - Home

12th - Home

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Thanks Graeme, here is a picture of my uncle Jack sitting in the landing craft. My Aunt cut this out from the front page of the Daily Record. I think we are going to ask the Record if they still have the complete front page. My Uncle told my mother about the harrowing events after this picture was taken, he told her about having to climb over hundreds of Canadian dead bodies in the Assault it sounded bad.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Here is a wartime group photo of the officers and NCO's of my uncles unit, he is the Sgt top row in the middle, right below the tree. 

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  • 5 weeks later...

One of our customers supplied us with this further information. Found out this info on your uncle in the London gazette 

Cameronians 3249529 cadet john Henderson (377299 this is his new number issued to him as a officer ) to be 2nd Lt. 13th October 1946

SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 1 APRIL, 1947 page 1485 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here is a picture of him just after the war when he became an officer, he's on the bottom row second from the right sitting next to the chap with the flat cap on, wonder who this chap is? maybe he forgot his uniform that day?

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  • 2 months later...

Here's the third and final group photo I have of him, he is in the centre holding the cane, now in command of his own platoon. I think the rank insignia is full Lt. 

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Great pic, but do you known what I hate about them. Everyone had their own way of wearing the bunnett. Uniform. Uniform. Uniform. They should always be the same. 

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