Jump to content

Rudolf Hess's Cockpit clock


Kenny Andrew

Recommended Posts

Not only that a buyer would be wanting a cert of authenticity paying that kind of price on that ,and that's the hard thing to do with an item like that its always near impossible pinning an antique to a certain person so most dealers would sell it as it is an antique aircraft part from the 40's as its almost impossible to prove its from the Hess plane from a dealers point of view, they should have took the 1.5k offer and ran. lol

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be honest they did have good provenance with it , but 1.5 K was probably all it was worth. I did enjoy researching it , you never know she might bring it in again sometime ,but the family didn't really need the money and I think maybe they were just wanting to find out what it was worth.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You you never know Kenny they might bring it in if they ever are in need of some cash ,I'd get them to write and sign a letter if you ever end up taking it off there hands that should work for a c.o.a would look nice in a glass case that piece , pity the farmer didn't take the whole plane he could off made a fortune selling it in parts lol

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 years later...

I assume this question has long been solved, however, there is a dealer in Hamburg with a selection of instrument clocks from former Luftwaffe aircraft, for instance:

Vorratsanzeiger

Verbrauchsanzeiger

Verbrauchsmesser

Drehzahlmesser

Druckmesser

Temperaturanzeiger - these are availabe at prices of 160, 180, 210-250 Euros

Not forgetting, an Me110 had two engines, and would ltherefore have had two of these instruments, theoretically.

Hess DID fly over in a Me 110, this is recorded. He had also made several attempts, which for one reason or another did not work out. In one case, a flare-pistol fell into the control cables, jamming them, so that Hess had to return. Hess was also taking a great risk one way or another, it was all for nothing.

Attached is a photo of an instrument panel from a He111 - some of the instruments would have been similar, just different adjustments.

post-173-0-11128300-1469466985.jpg

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

The truth about Hess' flight to Scotland has been covered up till now, it looks as though the truth will never be revealed. Recently discovered documents show some facts in a different light, revealing secret connections that prevailed between elite circles in Britain and Germany beyond the outbreak of war.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rudolf Hess actually parachuted into my friend Alan Baird's farm in Eaglesham. Floors Farm which was then run by his grandfather Basil, is only a few miles from where I lived. Basil Baird and his wife Margaret called the authorities, who took him away. Almost everybody in my school had a piece from his plane, whither it be a dial or a small piece of fuselage, try as I might none of their families would ever part with any of their items.   

His plane crashed in Bonnyton Field on Floors Farm near Eaglesham. The first man on the scene after Hess landed next to the farm, and injured his leg in the process, was farm hand Davy McLean. With a pitchfork in hand Mr McLean captured what he thought was just a Luftwaffe pilot. Hess used the assumed name of Alfred Horn at this point and after the offer of a cup of tea in his farm cottage he was escorted to Busby Home Guard Company's drill Hall at Lodge St. John, Busby.

It was there that a local Royal Observer Corps officer, Major Graham Donald identified 'Horn' as Deputy Reichsfuhrer Hess. He was taken to 3rd Renfrewshire Battalion Home Guard HQ which was in Giffnock Scout Hall. Once they were sure he was Hess he was quickly taken out of Home Guard hands and moved to the now demolished Maryhill Barracks in Glasgow under the escort of men from 11th Bn the Cameronians.

After getting his injured leg seen to he was very quickly taken to the Tower of London and would never return to Scotland. His plane was soon taken away too. As a make of the Bf110 which had never flown over the UK it was wanted by the RAF for examination. From the field in Floors farm it was first taken to a rail siding in Busby and then transported south.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hess completely underestimated the situation at the time, and was naive enough to believe that he could negotiate with those on the other side.
He must have seriously believed that his intentions had a chance of being taken seriously. No "criminal" would have undertaken such an operation as he did.  A flight such as Hess undertook, was extremely hazardous, he completely underestimated the people on the other side, whom he had wanted to contact, not realising that they had no power or decisions or even influence to change the course of the war. At any point, Hess could have been shot down, even on the German side, as Flak and fighters were not informed of his flight and would have mistaken him for an intruder. The distance alone was hazardous and there was no fuel for a return. He could have beene intercepted by RAF fighters, as he had been spotted, but these wer informed to let him pass. Due to lack of navigation aids, Hess landed off course, several miles from his intended destination, therefore all secrecy was lost, and that is the reason that the Duke of Hamilton refused to see him. It is doubtfull whether the Duke of Hamilton would have had enough influence to intervene in any political matters. It was for similar reasons that the Duke of Windsor had been transferred to the Bahamas as Governor, in order "to get him out of the way".
Because the mission had failed, Hitler denied any knowledge of plans of Hess' flight.

Found this pic in internet, a memorial to Hess has been erected on the spot where he landed. He gets more respect in Scotland than he does over here.
His grave was since 1987 at the family plot in Wunstorf/Unterfranken. It was cleared overnight by leftwing church authorities (for political reasons) in 2011. The authorites refused to renew the gravesite despite repeated pleas by the family. It was claimed that there were too many rightwing pilgrims goint there. This was an illegal act by these authorities, and it was carried out during the night without informing anyone beforehand. Photos show original grave and empty site. On the grave was the inscription "Ich hab's gewagt", I have dared.

A section of the fuselage of the Me 110 flown by Hess can be seen at the Imperial War Museum in London.

HessDenkmal.jpg

RudolfHeß_Grab.jpg

rudolfHessGrabbeseitigt.jpg

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes that first monument was destroyed in 1993 here is the extract from the Glasgow Herald. I remember it well, it was yet another controversy in the strange story of Rudolf Hess. Maybe a plaque by Historic Scotland would have been OK but the wording on the monument and the back ground of who might have erected it, offended allot of people.      

A MONUMENT to the Nazi Rudolf Hess, erected on farmland near Eaglesham, was destroyed yesterday by anti-fascists as the local district council was discussing steps to have it legally removed. Hours after it was disclosed that the marble and slate monument had been built in a field near Floors Farm, at the spot where Hitler's luckless deputy landed by parachute in 1941, someone came along and wrecked it. Anti-Nazi League stickers were left at the scene and police are now investigating the incident. The legend on the stone read: ''This stone marks the spot where brave, heroic Rudolf Hess landed by parachute on the night of 10th May 1941 seeking to end the war between Britain and Germany.'' The tribute incensed and offended the local community, many of whom are Jewish. The suspicion was that it had been commissioned by an elderly Nazi sympathiser from England. The fear was that, if allowed to remain in place, it would have become a focal point for European neo-fascist groups.

Senior officials from Eastwood District Council, as embarrassed and angry as anyone else, were taking steps to have the stone removed because it had not been granted planning permission. However, events overtook them. Farmer Craig Baird, on whose land at Floors Farm the memorial stood, was apparently unaware of the implications when an amiable, elderly, Yorkshireman approached him earlier this year to arrange for the stone to be erected. Mr Baird, 55, said: ''This man approached me and asked if I had any objection to him marking the site where Hess landed.'' The farmer made no objection even though he was made aware of the inscription. ''With hindsight, it should have been worded differently,'' he admitted. Mr Baird's brother, Basil, who runs a neighbouring farm and is a Conservative councillor on Eastwood district, said: ''Craig didn't appreciate what was involved. It would now appear that there were some sinister undertones which he was certainly not aware of.'' Councillor Baird knew nothing about the memorial, apparently erected in May, until told about it yesterday. ''It is certainly insensitive and  it didn't have planning approval,'' he said. As representatives of Eastwood's influential Jewish community expressed their disgust yesterday, the council's executives immediately took the first and as it turned out academic steps to ensure the removal of the stone.

Speaking before the unofficial demolition job, chief executive Michael Henry said: ''Our director of planning has now written to the landowner pointing out that since there is no planning permission he should arrange to have it removed. I think we can say that, as far as the sentiments of the memorial are concerned, they are not those which this council would have any sympathy for.'' Scottish Office Minister Allan Stewart, in whose constituency the monument stood, said: ''I am in no doubt that the people of Eastwood found the wording and the monument itself very offensive.'' Mr Harry Diamond, a leading member of the Jewish community in Glasgow, commented: ''If this is indeed a memorial to a man who was second-in-command to the world's most obscene regime, one can only feel disgust and repugnance. It is also an appalling insult to every British soldier who served in the Second World War and to the families of those who died to preserve our freedom.'' Mr Harvey Livingston, president of the Glasgow Jewish Representative Council, said his community would be ''horrified and disgusted'' to learn that any leader of the German Nazi regime could have been respected in this way.

Meanwhile, the identity of the elderly Yorkshireman who erected the monument remains a mystery. Could it have been Mr Colin Jordan, the former British fascist leader, now 70 and living in retirement near Harrogate? ''No. It wasn't me,'' he said yesterday. ''But I knew about the project and I know who it was. I am not prepared to disclose his identity. ''So far as I know, he came up with this idea himself and he mentioned it to a number of people including myself and asked for our opinion. We were entirely in favour of it. I always opposed and protested at the imprisonment of Rudolf Hess and therefore the idea of a memorial like this is something with which I am entirely sympathetic.'' Pressed to disclose the identity of the man, he added: ''Well, I can say that he lives in England but he is not a Yorkshireman. I think, in fact, he may claim to be Scottish.'' 
 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 6 months later...

There is something wrong somewhere, when the Truth "offends a lot of people".

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think the truth will be known for a very long time regarding the Hess incident. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many people maintain that Hess was murdered. Does that make sense after over 40 years imprisonment? On the other hand, Hess was 93 years old and according to reports of his physical condition, and would have been too weak and too frail to have strangled himself with an electric cable.  A nurse on duty at the time also claimed to have seen two men at the scene, who were acting suspiciously and one of whom, was reported to have uttered (but not in German) "Das Schwein ist tot...." There were also at least two post-mortems carried out, one by the military occupation authorities, who reportedly removed several vital organs, and one post-mortem by German authorities, who also recorded that these organs were missing.

Wikipedia statement:
Other than his stays in hospital, Hess spent the rest of his life in Spandau Prison.  His fellow inmates Konstantin von Neurath, Walther Funk and Erich Raeder were released because of poor health in the 1950s;  Karl Dönitz, Baldur von Schirach, and Albert Speer served their time and were released; Dönitz in 1956, Schirach and Speer in 1966.  The 600-cell prison continued to be maintained for its lone prisoner from Speer and Schirach's release until Hess's death in 1987, at an estimated cost of DM 800,000.  Conditions were far more pleasant in the 1980s than in the early years; Hess was allowed to move more freely around the cell block, setting his own routine and choosing his own activities, which included television, films, reading and gardening. A lift was installed so he could more readily access the garden, and he was provided with a medical orderly from 1982 onward.

Numerous appeals for Hess's release were launched by his lawyer, Dr Alfred Seidl, beginning as early as 1947. These were denied, mainly because the Soviets repeatedly vetoed the proposal. Spandau was located in West Berlin, and its existence gave the Soviets a foothold in that sector of the city. Additionally, Soviet officials believed Hess must have known in 1941 that an attack on their country was imminent.  In 1967, Wolf Rüdiger Hess began a campaign to win his father's release, garnering support from notable politicians such as Geoffrey Lawrence, 1st Baron Oakseyin Britain and Willy Brandt in Germany, but to no avail, in spite of the prisoner's advanced age and deteriorating health

Hess died on 17 August 1987 at age 93 in a summer house that had been set up in the prison garden as a reading room. He took an extension cord from one of the lamps, strung it over a window latch, and hanged himself. Death occurred by asphyxiation. A short note to his family was found in his pocket, thanking them for all that they had done. The Four Powers released a statement on 17 September ruling the death a suicide. He was initially buried at a secret location to avoid media attention or demonstrations by Nazi sympathisers, but was re-interred in a family plot at Wunsiedel on 17 March 1988; his wife was buried beside him in 1995.
Hess' lawyer Dr. Alfred Seidl felt that he was too old and frail to have managed to kill himself. Wolf Rüdiger Hess repeatedly claimed that his father had been murdered by the British Secret Intelligence Service to prevent him from revealing information about British misconduct during the war. Abdallah Melaouhi served as Hess's medical orderly from 1982 to 1987; he was dismissed from his position at his local district parliament's Immigration and Integration Advisory Council after he wrote a self-published book on a similar theme. According to an investigation by the British government in 1989, the available evidence did not back up the claim that Hess was murdered, and Solicitor General Sir Nicholas Lyell saw no grounds for further investigation.   Moreover, the autopsy results support the conclusion that Hess had killed himself.  A report released in 2012 again raised the question of whether Hess was murdered. Historian Peter Padfield claims that the suicide note found on the body appears to have been written when Hess was hospitalised in 1969.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Part of the fuselage of Hess' Bf 110 is displayed in the Imperial War Museum in London

image.png.2906403bf5613b86e7407d11bd01feae.png

image.png.8f733a56aa93b6e692e74ace7b8c023b.png

The crash site in 1941

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

It is a very strange story indeed, I also heard that  Mikhail Gorbachev wanted to release Hess and that the British would not allow it, perhaps another reason for his death. There is also the other theory that the prisoner in Spandau was not even Rudolf Hess but a double, hence his strange behavior at his trial. Dr. Hugh Thomas who had been a physician at Spandau and had personally examined Hess closely  said he first became suspicious when he examined Hess and could find no sign of the scarring that Hess’s World War I wounds would have left on his torso. According to Thomas, Hess’s medical records said that he had been shot through the left lung, the bullet entering just above the left armpit and exiting between the spine and left shoulder. Such a wound would have left a visible mark, but Thomas found none.      

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

It looks like the doppelgänger conspiracy has just been disproved.

New Scientist 22 January 2019 By Rowan Hooper
Exclusive: DNA solves Rudolf Hess doppelgänger conspiracy theory

Adolf Hitler's deputy flew to Scotland in 1941 and was imprisoned for the rest of his life. But was the man in Spandau really Rudolf Hess? Now a DNA test has revealed the truth

It is one of the greatest remaining conspiracy theories of the second world war. In May 1941, Adolf Hitler’s deputy führer, Rudolf Hess, flew solo from Germany to Scotland in an apparent attempt to broker a peace deal between Britain and Germany. Hess’s plan failed, and he was arrested in the UK. He was eventually tried at the military tribunals in Nuremberg and incarcerated in Spandau prison in Berlin, where he died in 1987.

But from the start, there were doubts over whether the prisoner designated “Spandau #7” really was Hess. The wartime president of the United States, Franklin D. Roosevelt, was one of the leading subscribers to the theory that the man in Spandau was an imposter, an idea perpetuated by a British doctor who worked at Spandau, W. Hugh Thomas. The UK government commissioned four investigations into the claims, but the “doppelgänger conspiracy” has persisted for 70 years. Had the real Rudolf Hess escaped justice and settled abroad? When the German government cremated Hess’s remains in 2011, it was thought the last chance to pursue DNA analysis of the body had been lost.

Now the mystery has finally been solved by a piece of DNA detective work by a retired military doctor from the US Army and forensic scientists from Austria. They conclude that the prisoner known as Spandau #7 was indeed the Nazi criminal Rudolf Hess.

hess1.jpg

The front and back of the blood sample, labelled “Spandau #7 PATHOLOGY SVC HEIDELBERG MEDDAC 1139”

Hess has continued to generate historical interest. He was one of Hitler’s close friends and a leading Nazi politician, and then there’s the extraordinary manner of his attempted peace deal with the UK. After his death, his grave in the town of Wunsiedel became a Neo-Nazi rallying site, which in 2011 led the German authorities to exhume and cremate Hess’s body, scatter the ashes at sea, and destroy the grave.

But not all of Hess’s DNA had been destroyed. During his incarceration in Spandau, Hess was monitored and cared for as was any other prisoner. Spandau was run by officials from the UK, France, the United States and the Soviet Union, who rotated duties each month. In 1982, a blood sample was taken from Hess by a US army doctor, Phillip Pittman, as part of a routine health check. A pathologist, Rick Wahl, mounted some of the blood on a microscope slide to perform a cell count. The slide was labelled “Spandau #7” and hermetically sealed, and kept by Wahl for teaching purposes at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington DC.

In the mid-1990s, another US military doctor, Sherman McCall, was resident at the army hospital when he heard about the blood sample. “I first became aware of the existence of the Hess blood smear from a chance remark during my pathology residency at Walter Reed,” McCall told New Scientist. “I only became aware of the historical controversy a few years later.” McCall, who is trained in molecular pathology, immediately realised the slide’s potential for solving the Hess controversy. “Making it happen,” he says, “was another matter entirely.”

McCall contacted Jan Cemper-Kiesslich, a molecular biologist in the DNA Unit at the department of legal medicine, University of Salzburg, Austria, and told him about the slide and the dried blood.

Working under standard forensic DNA protocols, Cemper-Kiesslich’s team extracted DNA from the dried blood. Now they had to find a living male relative of Rudolf Hess to make a comparison. They got in touch with David Irving, a discredited British historian who has denied the Holocaust took place. Irving provided the phone number of Hess’s son, Wolf Rüdiger Hess. “In the event, this number was disconnected,” says McCall. “Unbeknownst to us, he had recently died.”

hess2.jpg

Rudolf Hess photographed inside Spandau Prison

Tracking down living Hess relatives took yet more time. “The family is very private,” says McCall. “The name is also rather common in Germany, so finding them was difficult.” But in the end, they managed it, and obtained DNA samples from a living male relative.

The forensic DNA analysis centred on the Y chromosome, which is inherited only down the male line, and on a range of genetic markers across other parts of the genome. The male relative and another member of the Hess family have seen and approved of the publication of the DNA results, but do not want to take part in any further discussion of the findings.

“It is already a matter of public record that Hess’s wife, Ilse, did not believe this story,” says McCall – she didn’t believe Spandau #7 was an imposter. When she met the British governor of Spandau on a visit, she joked: “How is the doppelgänger today?”

Statistical analysis of the results suggests a 99.99 per cent likelihood that the blood sample on the slide comes from a close family member of the living relative of Hess, “strongly supporting the hypothesis”, Cemper-Kiesslich’s team report, “that prisoner ‘Spandau #7’ indeed was Rudolf Hess, the Deputy Führer of the Third Reich”.

Citing the privacy of the Hess family, Cemper-Kiesslich declined to comment on their response to the results. We don’t know how the Hess family feels about the closure of the final chapter on the story of their infamous relative. “The conspiracy theory claiming that prisoner ‘Spandau #7’ was an impostor is extremely unlikely and therefore disproved,” the scientists write.

In the paper, published in Forensic Science International Genetics, the authors go on to note: “Due to the lucky event of the presence of a biological trace sample originating from prisoner ‘Spandau #7’ the authors got the unique chance to shed new light on one of the most persistent historical memes of World War II history.”

An assessment of the Hess DNA results is made more difficult by the ethical issues concerning his relatives, says Turi King, a geneticist at the University of Leicester, UK, who led the forensic examination of the last Plantagenet king of England, Richard III. The paper omits DNA details of Hess’s relative to prevent him being identified, but on the face of it, she says, it appears that the scientists have disproved the conspiracy theory.

“They’ve got a perfect match with the Y chromosome and a living male Hess relative,” King says. “If this person was a doppelgänger, you wouldn’t get that match, so from that point of view it’s a good sign.”

And Walther Parson, a forensic molecular biologist at Innsbruck Medical University in Austria, says: “The manuscript underwent review by two anonymous reviewers. I have no reason to assume that the data and science are not sound. I know the scientists are great.”

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This was an outrageous and criminal act of the government, which breaks the laws of the land it is supposed to rule. The grave of all deceased members of the entire family Hess has gone. Is this the act of a so-called democracy? It is nothing other than an act of despotism. They are also attempting to blot out all evidence of the past, which might exonerate any so-called guilt on the part of Hess and of others. I was thoroughly disgusted, and the Federal Government has lost all respect on my part.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 years later...

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mark Felton productions are very good, interesting that there might have been American parts on the plane, the mystery continues.   

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...