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kenny andrew

Rudolf Hess's Cockpit clock

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I have just acquired Rudolf Hess's cockpit clock from when he crash landed in Glasgow on his way to try to make peace with Great Britain. The clock was acquired from an RAF man's daughter,her father removed the clock from Hess's BF110 when it crash landed in Eaglesham on his way to meet the Duke of Hamilton.

I have copies of Photo's of the RAF man standing next to Hess's plane, also on the front page of a newspaper, wedding photo of him in RAF uniform, birth certificate, marriage certificate, discharge certificate also a letter from his daughter confirming he took the clock from Hess's plane. Has anybody any idea what this might be worth, as I have no idea? I think it is quite an historic piece not to mention the controversy involving the whole Hess affair. Has anybody seen any similar type of item go for sale before? I am at a total loss and am trying to get the best price for the family.

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post-3-1277310958.jpg

post-3-1277310985.jpg

post-3-1277311012.jpg

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An identified item with such history will not go cheap. At the proper auction it could certainly fetch a few hundred if not thousand pounds. You don't come across them much and placing a value is difficult. If you are looking for a similar value item to compare I think you need to look at any items directly related to other Nazi high staff like Speer, Rommel, etc and compare for something that is direct linked to an event with them.

Ways to add up value? What would the price of just the clock be without history? What would the price of a Hess signature be? What would the price of an item linked to other high Nazi official events be? Target an added up and averaged fair price from there perhaps.

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If I can play the cynic for a moment. If I were to be buying the item I would want more provenance than a newspaper cutting, a photo and a story from a daughter that her father took it from Hess' plane. I don't doubt the story is true as that is how these items tend to be found. However, for every true story there are 100's of false ones. Lets face it if you saw this on e-bay you would flick straight past it thinking it's another story made up by the seller to increase the price.

I am just saying that, for the chunk of money I would probably pay for this historic item, I would expect a bit more provenance. It's only because it's coming from you I would believe the story. Any other source and I would skip past it with the provenance it has. I think that may be your problem in shifting it for a realistic price.

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There was some stuff allegedly from Hess's plane on ebay a year or so ago with similar provenance.

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I must agree and should have added that to my comment. However, as the TB is a reputable shop selling only authentic stuff it stands by, if the shop did the research (charging for it of course) to verify the guy really was in the family of the current owner, etc and issues a certificate stating by the research it conducted then you could establish some provenance. However it would only be circumstantial in that the man is in the photo of the shot down plane, has service records and he also is in family photos and a family line can be established to the device.

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any serial numbers for year of production that may help tie it down to the actual plane. only a thought.

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Yes I think there will be allot of work involved in this one will let you know how I get on.

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Interested to see how you get on Kenny. Best of luck. Don't genuine cockpit instruments go for a price over the hundred? Especially Luftwaffe items. I thought service men were strictly forbidden to remove pieces of downed aircraft. Doesn't mean they didn't though!

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Crazy idea but when exactly did the place come down? Do we know? Assuming the clock stopped when the plane hit the ground and that no tampering or operation is possible to the clock dial since then the time (11.12) should be when the plane came down, yes?

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It's not a clock. It's some sort of device for measuring the propeller pitch. It changes the angle of the propeller into a time. Apparently you take off at 12:00. Read it on a website. It's all double dutch to me. If you stick the number on the back of the instrument into google it brings up a number of pages on some sort of Luftwaffe equipment website. The translator program on the page I was on said that they were used in ME109's and introduced with that number in '44.

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Can you post a link to that page, introduced in 44 is not a good sign. Yes it's a "Luftschrauben-Stellungsanzeiger" or prop pitch indicator.

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Number 13.

http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/Flugzeuge.../Hauptseite.htm

Near bottom of page - with pics

http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/instrumen...ngsanzeiger.htm

Number 15.

http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/Flugzeuge...bung/Bilder.htm

I may be wrong on the date. There is an A version with 1941 and a B version with 1944. But it's all in German so guess work is the order for me. perhaps one of the guys who speak German can help out more.

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Thirteenth Verstellschalter for propeller

- Fl. 18 502

- Manufacturer Bosch

Note: This lever was used to switch operation of the adjusting motor for the propeller. By pushing up the engine speed was greater, by pressing down smaller. The lever automatically returned back to neutral. From version E-4, the switch has been replaced by a thumb switch on 32 337 Fl accelerator. The opening in the device board has been closed with a dummy plate. Marking devices on board: E9

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Just for ease of reference

1st Link

15. Stellungsanzeiger für Luftschraube

- Fl 18503-2

- Hersteller VDO, bzw. VDM

Bemerkung: Dieses mechanische Gerät diente zur Rückmeldung des Einstellwinkels der Luftschraube in Form der Uhrzeit. Bei der 109 E wurde bei 12:00 gestartet. Dieses Gerät wurde bei allen 109 verwendet, obwohl sich die Gerätenummer von 9-9500.31 bei der "E" änderte in 9-9548B bei späteren Baureihen. Der Unterschied war allerdings marginal.

3rd Link

13. Stellungsanzeiger für Luftschraube

- Fl. 18503-2

Bemerkung: Dieses mechanische Gerät diente zur Rückmeldung des Einstellwinkels der Luftschraube in Form der Uhrzeit. Bei der 109 wurde bei 12:00 gestartet. Dieses Gerät wurde bei allen 109 verwendet, obwohl sich die Gerätenummer von 9-9500.31 bei der "E" änderte in 9-9548B bei späteren Baureihen. Der Unterschied war allerdings marginal. Hier ein spätes Gerät, mit der deutlich sichtbaren Gerätenummer 9-9548B auf dem Ziffernblatt.

2nd Link

Gerät-Nr : 9-9548 A-1 1941

Luftschraubenstellungsanzeiger 1942

Hersteller : vdo

Gerät-Nr : 9-9548 B-1 1944

Luftschraubenstellungsanzeiger

neu

Hersteller : vdo

B 1 Stellungsanzeige23

456

Bf 109

Gerät-Nr : 9-9548 B-2 1944

Luftschraubenstellungsanzeiger

Hersteller : vdo

Bf 109

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the other thing that strikes me is did Hess not fly a 110

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OK according to that link

9-9548A1 is 1941

9-9548B1 is 1944

but this clock is

9-9548a would this not make it 1941 or before?

Does anybody know if these were used on Bf110's or only 109's?

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On 10 May 1941, at about 6:00 P.M., Hess took off from Augsburg in a Messerschmitt Bf 110, and Hitler ordered the General of the Fighter Arm to stop Hess (squadron leaders were ordered to scramble only one or two fighters since Hess' particular aircraft could not be distinguished from others).Hess parachuted over Renfrewshire, Scotland on 10 May and landed (breaking his ankle) at Floors Farm near Eaglesham.In a newsreel clip, farmhand David McLean claims to have arrested Hess with his pitchfork.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Hess

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It's my grammar, I meant to say Hess flew a 110 and not a 109.

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 I always believed Hess flew a Bf 110. I don't think a 109 would have the range. I'm no aircraft expert though. In the photo the fuselage looks like a 110.

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Yes he did fly a 110 with extra fuel tanks, I think the 9-9548a might not be a problem however there seems to be no mention of this instrument being used in a 110?

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You will have to dig up more oddments.

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OK here's the cockpit of a 110 it does not seem to be there

post-3-1277409898.jpg

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Good photo. Certainly doesn't seem to be there. Perhaps a 2 engine aircraft didn't need one. It really needs an expert to confirm one way or the other. Why don't you e-mail the website and ask them for an opinion.

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This is getting really confusing , I have just heard from a collector in Norway that the Bf110 did indeed have this instrument. I have asked him if he has a picture ,if so I will post it here.

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That is a seriously detailed website. The guy needs to be applauded for putting something like that on the web. Although perhaps a visit to the shrink or just having a girlfriend would help.

Let's hope it is in the 110 as well and that the guy comes through with the photo.

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