ww1 interallied victory medal

[LACKIE14]

this may be a stupid question from a novice, have been recently looking at polish ww1 victory medals.

trying to judge if fakes or not(boring i know but a game i like to play?)

but i suddenly remembered someone told me that poland didn't exist before the great war if so how can there be a polish victory medal

[Graeme]

Becuase Poland was re-constituted by the Allied Powers in 1918.

 

However, the medal is unofficial. Good luck finding one. I have heard that hens teeth are easier to find.

[LACKIE14]

in regards to hens teeth i hear that alexander laslo's book is on victory medals is just as rare something else i wouldn't mind having.

[Sumserbrown]

I would put the Polish victory medal down as a 'fantasy medal'. They are not official, but they look in keeping with the rest of the series and you can still buy them. There are three different types and I have posted pictures of two of them on the other Interallied medal thread. Two of the medals are more common than the third (which is quite expensive).

What I don't know (but would love to find out) is who produced them, when and in what quantities.

[Ian_Kel]

I don't have a copy but apparently Laslo's Interallied Victory Medal book briefly mentions the 1st type, early issue, British Victory Medal variant? Again, it's something which few British medal dealers or auction houses mention when, on occasion, they sell this earlier type of medal.

That there's two (slightly) different medal types doesn't seem to be a big deal to most collectors here.

 

Pic below, early issue medal left, later, standard issue medal right.

[Kenny Andrew]

I wasn't even aware of this Ian, and I've handled thousands of these, is it just the colour that's different or are there other subtle differences?   

[Ian_Kel]

I'm no expert on these, Kenny, my knowledge of them initially came from Howard Wiliamson's "The Great War Medal Collector's Companion", Vols I & II plus a couple of really good articles published by OMRS (North America), I'll see if I can find a link to the online articles. After that it was just looking out for them at auction & dealers sites.

My understanding is that it's the finish of the struck medal, the suspension ring and the way the suspension barrel was attached to the disc that differentiates the early issue from the majority of 'normal' issue medals.

The main difference being that the early issue medals, after being struck, were sandblasted (which softens the design and gives a dull, finely grained surface finish) then toned to give a uniform dark brown appearance. 

The suspension barrel on the early medals was a separate piece, hard-soldered to the edge of the disc (apparently they could break off quite easily).

The suspension ring on the early medals was crudely soldered with grey/silver solder. When you look at their rings they're nearly always split open, the solder application can be near non-existent or it can be  applied quite thickly. Either way the ring is almost always split open.

 

My understanding is that the 1st type Victory medals started being issued (mainly to officers) in May, 1920. Apparently soon after there were complaints about the uninspiring dull medal finish and the quality of the ring suspension. Supposedly Winston Churchill compared the medal unfavourably with something fit only for a Christmas Cracker. It looks like 1st type medal production was halted, mid 1920, after the mint had received and started to post out around 33,100 named medals. It also looks like there were another 39,00o medals still at the factory, sandblasted and toned yet still to be named. It's uncertain how many (if any) of the yet-to-be-named medals were issued, perhaps they were all scrapped(?) but named 1st type medals were certainly still being issued to officers and men as late as December 1920.

A new medal finish was approved (given royal assent in December, 1920?), the 2nd type, thought to be issued from 1st January 1921. The 2nd type is the one you most commonly see, no sandblasting or toned finish (the 2nd type medal disc was left as struck, a bright bronze/brass colour then coated in clear lacquer). Apparently the suspension barrel on the 2nd type medal was cut or punched out along with the blank medal planchet (I've no idea how they did this?) as opposed to separate pieces later soldered together. Finally the suspension ring on 2nd type was finely soldered closed, a near(ish) invisible join.

I don't think anyone knows for sure just how many of these 1st type medals were issued but it's thought most of them went to officers (I guess 'cos their medal rolls were quicker to complete and verify (being less of them per regiment + officers applied for the medals by post using an army form, they didn't have to wait until the campaign medals were posted out by their records office). It's easy to see if an officer received a 1st type or 2nd type, just look at his medal index card (and his War & Victory Medal Roll entry), it states the date when his medal was dispatched, if his Victory was issued up until the end of December 1920 it should be a 1st type, if it was issued from 1st January 1921 onwards it will be a normal 2nd type. Other ranks were also awarded the 1st type Victory but they seem to be scarcer, also often more difficult to verify 'cos in general the date of medal issue isn't recorded on other ranks Medal Index Cards or medal rolls (if you're very lucky you might find an other ranks service record surviving online, occasionally the service record contains a copy of the signed for & dated War Medal & Victory Medal receipts).

[Ian_Kel]

Links attached to two good articles published by OMS America;

https://www.omsa.org/the-british-victory-medal-1914-1919-part-i/

https://www.omsa.org/british-victory-medal-1914-1919-part-iii-statistics/

[Ian_Kel]

I've attached a couple of pics of another 1st type Victory, again to an officer, this one sent to him in December, 1920. You can see that sometimes, at first glance, it can be quite difficult to tell if it's a 1st or 2nd type medal - This one's been mounted and worn post-war. Over time the medal has been lightly polished, revealing the lighter coloured bronze base metal below the remaining dark toning, look closely and you can still see the sandblasted texture + silver coloured soldering and a split in the suspension ring.

[Ian_Kel]

Here's the scanned page from Howard Williamson's "The Great War Medal Collector's Companion", Vol I, which mentions these medals, Kenny, hope it's readable at this size. If it breaches copyright feel free to delete this post (it's a really good book though, the guy shared a lifetime's knowledge of WW1 British medals in it and the further two volumes, pretty much a must-have for folk interested).

A couple of things to note. Howard states that these medals "should"command a price premium - Overall I'm not sure that they do, not yet anyway. Just now folk collect British medals more for the naming on on the medal rim rather than manufacturing technicalities. I've not really seen any noticeable price difference between either medal types (generally the difference isn't mentioned).

Just a tiny detail, the 1st types were issued from May 1920, not June 1920. Scan also attached of "King George V, HIS MAJESTY", (yes, that's exactly how his medals would have been named), Medal Index Card, it shows that his Victory medal was issued, "I.V. (issue voucher number) 750. d (dispatched) 25th May 1920. So 1st type Victory medals being issued (to the big cheeses, at least) from May 1920.

 

[Ian_Kel]

And just for fun, the Medal Index Card for the guy who actually designed the British Victory medal (also the reverse of the British War Medal), William McMillan, an Aberdonian who studied at Grays School of Art and served WW1 as a Pte. then 2/Lieutenant in English Regiments.

He didn't apply for nor did he receive his service medals until May 1929, more than 10 years after the war had finished, years after he had actually designed the things. Why, I've no idea.

 

[Kenny Andrew]

Very interesting Ian, I've probably had loads of those over the years and never noticed, you learn something new every day  

[Ian_Kel]

I never noticed for years either. Most of these early type medals were issued to officers (they're "scarce" to officers, probably quite "rare" to find issued to other ranks), unless you collect heavily to officers and even then, the difference is easily missed.

It's really just a manufacturing difference, once you start to notice the difference it can can be spotted quite quickly. I actually quite like the dull brown issues, they tie in with the original idea of how the Inter Allied Medal should have looked and they don't look out of place sitting alongside a French, Belgian or Czech etc Victory medal.

I picked up a couple of other 1st types the past week or so, one to an officer, the other one perhaps a bit rarer(?) to a private, harder to find and with the bonus that his service papers survive along with his signed for War & Victory Medal receipt which is dated within in the timeframe of 1st type Victory Medal issue.

The actual struck design of the medal, the figure of Victory and the text on the reverse is exactly the same on the 1st type issue and the 2nd type medal issue so I guess they used the same striking dies for both the 1st and the 2nd issue types, only the medal finish and suspension attachment altering. Pic attach of the two recent 1st type Victory medal buys also a near mint 2nd type Victory to show the difference plus an original Royal Mint die as used for striking the design detail on both types of medal.