phantom Posted August 10, 2022 Share Posted August 10, 2022 excellent so far 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72 usmc Posted August 16, 2022 Author Share Posted August 16, 2022 Ethiopian K98k Saint George Medallion Background information Nepalese Cache After 2000 there were two larger caches of surplus military rifles turn up and were purchased by American arms importers. The first was the Nepalese Cache of 2003-2004 obtained by International Military Antiques (IMA), while the second was the Ethiopian Cache of 2020 obtained by Inter Ordnance later called Royal Tiger Imports (RTI). This find included the Ethiopian K98k rifles. IMA purchased Nepal’s cache of historic firearms found at the forgotten arsenal of the Royal Nepalese Gurkha Army. These weapons were stored at Lagan Silekhana palace in Katmandu,Nepal. These have been collecting dust since 1839 and the hoard of vintage firearms contains more than 50,000 antique firearms including bronze cannons, edged weapons and numerous antique British firearms mostly over 150 years old. The most interesting specimens include thousands of vintage British Martini-Henry rifles ranging from excellent to poor condition. Rifle condition is a result of inadequate storage conditions and a long hard service life. IMA put these on the collectors market in the United States in 2004 and are still offering weapons from this find. Most of these are of British origin, not German K98ks. If the reader wants more information, below is an hour long documentary video about the quest by Christian Cranmer owner of International Military Antiques to recover the Royal Arsenal of Nepal that held 300 years worth of antique weapons. IMA also produced a book about this collection. Treasure Is Where You Find It - Full Length Documentary Film by Christian Cranmer, 11 Aug 2017 SOURCE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yHOmgU4Afs Ethopian Cache The most recent arms cache is recovered from Ethiopia and is more varied in the types of firearms. Over the years, many countries provided military support to that region of Africa, most of which gave or sold them their surplus or captured rifles. Because Ethiopia has a history of military support from a wide variety of nations this find turned out to be a real treasure of mixed vintage firearms from the past 150 years. It seems Ethiopian kept everything, even their junk rifles. Inter Ordanance, now called Royal Tiger Imports (RTI) obtained the entire cache in 2020 and made the collection available to buyers in America. This collection includes different versions of K98k rifles as well as many other rifles. I want to discuss the Ethiopian K98k which came as a surprise to most collectors. Most U. S. collectors were excited about the rifles. However, this excitement quickly dampened after the k98s were offered for sale. Three factors: the condition, price, and manner of sale soon dissuaded a good number of buyers. The condition of a rifle can range from somewhat good to very poor. The guns coming out of this Ethiopia cache are generally well used and have a long service life in which the firearm experienced poor field maintenance. Most are worn out and unserviceable, they show shot-out or sewer pipe bores, have mixed or missing parts, have bug infested cracked stocks, and do not headspace. I would say most are great wall hangers, some nice complete worn rifles that would make nice type specimens, and very few would make reliable shooters. The next surprise was the price. These are $150-$300 poor condition specimens that sell for around $600-$1000. RTI prices are higher than most will find at U.S. gun shows or auctions. While plenty of high rollers purchased specimens, the average collector passed. The lack of an ideal description was a limiting factor. RTI basically offered a gamble. The firearms are not graded, there are no photos of each rifle, no stock description, no barrel description, no mention of what parts may be missing or damaged. Placing an order is a true roll of the dice to see what arrives. Even given those factors, more than a few took the bait. Many collectors wanted the Saint George, circular, stamped medallion K98k as a type rifle and did not worry about cost or condition. Here is an example of a rifle that arrived: https://www.gunboards.com/threads/ethiopian-contract-k98-review.1191087/ The RTI Ethiopian cache produced an interesting assortment of firearms. The general background information about the history of this these Ethiopian Arms is provided in three descriptive documentary/interview videos from Forgotten Weapons or Inter Ordnance. I have also provided links to four magazine articles from 2020 that contain some interesting photos. The following select photos are taken from the magazine sources and are shown to provide the reader a visual of the storage conditions and appearance of the assorted rifles. I do not own an Ethiopian specimen due to their high cost and I have never see an example at gun shows in 2022. I think the initial cost is so high that there is no room for resale on a K98k in such a poor condition. Most want them at a reasonable cost. And this has not happened. What will follow will be past SRF posts discussing and showing the Ethiopian Saint George Medallion K98k Type when it first came to the American market at IO, Classic, and RTI. I will rely on reference articles, forum posts, and You tube videos to provide information about this new variation of the K98k rifle. Documentary Videos of the Cache From Ian McCollum at Forgotten Weapons 1) Interview: Uli Wiegand of InterOrdnance on Importing Guns from Africa Jan 2020 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5fO14v0tgg 2) An Aladdin’s Cave of Ethiopian Arms from InterOrdnance July 2020 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GpKGePUr_Q&t=5s Ian McCollum states: QUOTE “I have been able to bring you a bunch of videos of guns with Ethiopian connections over the last few months thanks to InterOrdnance, aka Royal Tiger Imports. They have purchased essentially the entire stock of obsolete arms in Ethiopian stockpiles and brought them to the collector market here in the US. Because Ethiopia had military support from such a wide variety of nations over the past 140+ years, and because they kept even very old rifles in stockpiles, this is a real treasure chest of collectible rifles. It is on par with things like The guns coming out of Ethiopia are often very worn, but many of them have a truly unique history and they cover nearly a century of development from single shot systems like the Burden and Gras to bolt action repeaters like the Carcano, Enfield, and Mauser to Cold War self loading rifles like the MAS 49/56, Hakim, and vz.52. For the collector, this really is a tremendous opportunity, which we are unlikely to see again for a long time.” END OF QUOTE SOURCE: https://www.forgottenweapons.com/an-aladdins-cave-of-ethiopian-arms-from-interordnance/ Documentary video from InterOrdnance 3) Ethiopian K98k Saint George —Royal Tiger Imports (RTI) Feb. 2021 SOURCE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kxWvXwgS48&t=232s Magazine References with Great Photos: A) The Gun Bulletin. https://thegunbulletin.com/2022/02/21/behind-the-scenes-of-the-rti-ethiopian-gun-score/ American Shooting Journal. https://americanshootingjournal.com/the-guns-of-an-emporer/ C) American Rifleman. https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/emperor-selassie-s-treasure-the-guns-of-royal-tiger-imports/ D) Guns Magazine. https://gunsmagazine.com/guns/royal-tiger-imports-ethiopian-arms/ ————————— DESCRIPTION The Czechs sold a post war variation of the K98k rifle to Ethiopia under Emperor Haile Selassie. To most average collectors in the United States these K98ks were not known to exist. It is a new Type. They are not documented in the common literature.The Ethopian Contract K98k are manufactured post WW II on German equipment in Czechoslovakia, at the Brno and the Banská Bystrica factories. After these rifles became obsolete they were stacked in piles in quonset hut, metal warehouses and sat untouched for decades in the arid, hot environment that allowed the stocks to dry out and feel like bone dry driftwood to the touch. While the air is dry, the metal on the rifle still showed rust spots like you see on old car parts found in a desert junk yard. Under the wood is a collection of dried mummified dead bugs and sand. The stock and metal parts are coated with decades of filth that built up and is baked-on Ethiopian grime that prevents some of the parts from loosening. Finally, the Ethiopian Saint George, K98k contract Mauser is very similar to a Czech VZ 98N type. However, it is different in construction because the VZ 98N has solid (not laminated) wood, it lacks a coin medallion, and it lacks a cleaning rod recess channel. On a VZ 98N the left receiver rail shoulder is marked “Ceskislovenska Zbrojovka, A.S., Brno.” No such markings are found on the Ethiopian Saint George variety. The Attributes of a Post WW II, Ethiopian Contract Mauser The most obvious attribute found on an Ethiopian Contract K98k is the circular inset on the right side of the stock. This is the medallion of Saint George (patron saint of Ethiopia) with tiny Amharic lettering below the figure. Czech Rampant Lion proof marks are found on the receiver and barrel (left side). Generally, on most examples there are no Waffenamt proof marks although some early examples made with left over German parts may have Waffenamt proof marks. The Receiver codes are found to be dou 45, dot 45, and swp 45. The rifle has a laminated stock. The rifle has a late-war, cupped “Kriegsmodell” type, buttplate with firing pin dismantling hole. The stock does not have a bolt take down washer. The floor plate is a late-war Czech stamped, non removable plate with two screws lacking the tiny locking screws. The rifle has stamped and welded barrel bands that have the late-war screw holes, but do not utilize the screws. Some may have later Czech stamped bands lacking the screw holes. The barrel bands do not utilize late-war small screws to attach, rather it has the long spring band bar. The rifle has a cleaning rod and a complete cleaning rod hole. The sight is grooved for a sight hood. On the few examples that I have seen, there is no side left rail stamped markings“Ceskislovenska Zbrojovka, A.S., Brno” or “Mod 98.” The Ethiopian Saint George variety of K98k is discussed in this video. It is a MUST WATCH VIDEO! McCollum’s video shows the rifle and discusses its attributes. Please see the Forgotten Weapons Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFjI6cyOki4 A Unique Partnership: Czech Mausers for Ethiopia after WWII February 19, 2020 by Ian McCollum QUOTE “After World War Two, the Czech economy was in serious need of money to recover from the ravages of war. The arms factory at Brno was not bound by the same restrictions as German manufacturers, and still had a production line for the Mauser K98k, which they had been making for the Wehrmacht. Eager to bring in some hard currency, Brno continued to produce rifles on that German tooling, and sold them internationally. One of the not well known buyers was Israel, but another was Ethiopia (which also acted as the transit point for the shipments bound for Israel). These rifles used remaining inventory of receivers already marked with German arsenal codes, as well as other parts that had been manufactured during the war, so some will have waffenamt’d small parts. The trigger guards and magazine floor plates presented a problem, however, as these had been supplied by German factories during the war. So, Brno tooled up its own design, with a stamped floor plate reminiscent of the American 1903A3 and a large stamped trigger guard to allow for use with thick gloves. On this Ethiopian contract, a stock disc was added to each right stamped with an image of St George slaying the dragon, an Ethiopian national symbol.” END OF QUOTE SOURCE: https://www.forgottenweapons.com/a-unique-partnership-czech-mausers-for-ethiopia-after-wwii/ ————————— SRF 72 usmc Mon Feb 03, 2020 While Royal Tiger Imports (RTI) purchased the entire Ethiopian Cache of weapons, both RTI and Classic Arms sold specimens of the Ethiopian K98k Saint George Medallion rifles early in 2020 after they first arrived on the market. Classic purchased some rifles from RTI. Classic always made their famous unboxing videos to show off their new products. Classic Arms Video 1945 Czech Model 98 Mauser Rifle Unboxing, Jan 9, 2020 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYiJrybjwnw A Review of Classic firearms 8mm 98K Ethiopian Mauser with Nazi markings- What I received. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri0PNMqqois Classic Arms slide show of what is sold https://www.classicfirearms.com/k98-czech-german-8mm-bolt-action-rifle-dot-or-swp-1945/#lg=1&slide=1 After watching the Classic unboxing video of these K98k rifles, the viewer will notice some of these are examples of the Ethiopian K98k with the Saint George, medallion on the right side of the stock. All are early 1945 dated rifles. Some have nice rack numbers. Sorry these two guys are a joke- notice there is no mention of the two most important factors: (Matching bolts and bore condition). I could see that one rifle has a matching bolt. (shown below) It is funny that there is no mention of matching bolts or bore conditions. I saw no cosmo, so it would not have been too hard to gauge the bore and matching specimens like Classic did to the RC's that they sold many years ago. Back then there was attention to details. Each rifle was described individually and price appropriately to condition. Around 2004 the original owners of Classic sold the newly arrived Russian Capture K98ks. They came out with about 25-40 each week, all were individually described in detail with a variety of prices depending on condition. That was a much better way to sell these firearms than the current "luck of the draw" and at $700... BITE ME. For a matching bolt, good bore with wear, uncracked stock, a clear medallion in "as found" condition: $700 is fair. However, anything less is suckers bait. Ya, a little harsh, but how many are in good condition? And did they send off the best to be destroyed by JRA that converts them into historical travesties and keep the dogs to ship out to the suckers? I wonder? Why not be honest and list a valid description for each rifle so one knows what they are buying at $700. Is that too much to ask? These are some screen shots obtained from the unboxing video: photos Note this photo shows a rail with a Mod 98 marking, possibly a left over German receiver. Note a matching bolt specimen The rifle shows serial number 3046 on a receiver and the bolt. Just how many match is not known or even mentioned. IO sold a good number of the first batch to Sweaty Ben at Classic so the price can be jacked up, and Classic can destroy historical treasures by sending some to James River Arsenal to refurbish them into Mitchell-like Turds. Ya, lets REBLUE them to increase their value. Some of the normal K98k rifles were refurbished. I assume the best examples were selected to go to James River Arsenal (JRA) for a rebuild. As far as I know, none are the Ethiopian Saint George K98k rifles. WRONG! As of today 16 Aug 2022, I find out I was incorrect. It seems RTI could not resist destroying the historical integrity of a few Ethopian Medallion K98k rifles. Garbage for $1000. It makes one want to cry. QUOTE from RTI "We now have professionally refurbished a small batch of Ethiopian Contract K.98's! These rifles were completely disassembled and professionally blued by our master gunsmiths. Each rifle is thoroughly cleaned, inspected, and then re-blued. These rifles have been test fired and are 100% guaranteed functional and shootable. We only have a small quantity of these rifles available. Thank God NEVER IMPORTED INTO THE US BEFORE! Czech made K.98 K late war production with large winter trigger. These rifles were manufactured on German equipment in Czechoslovakia, at Brno and the Banská Bystrica plant. The codes are dot 45, swp 45 and dou 45. The rifles were made for export to Ethiopia for the emperor Haile Selassie . The rifles are identical to the German made K.98K but instead of the NAZI eagle the rifles have the Czech lion stamped on the receiver and barrel. Also the firearms have the “St. George” coin embedded in the stock as a symbol for Ethiopia. These guns were not known to exist. They are found nowhere in any literature. This is a must for every collector." END OF QUOTE A view of what not to do to a historical K98k (a JRA refurbished specimen). SOURCE: https://www.classicfirearms.com/k98-czech-german-8mm-bolt-action-rifle-dot-or-swp-1945-lightly-refurbished/#lg=1&slide=3 ---------- SRF reply by 72usmc A few more views of these Czech Ethiopian K98ks from Classic's video (dot,swp, dou) 1945 production; The import mark is on the barrel. Who's we do not know. Someone buy one and post pictures of it and the details. Rack number painted on some of the stocks Receiver views and condition as out of the crate. ———————- SRF Post by 72usmc, Feb 03, 2020 CZECH DOT 1945 MAUSER - Inter Ordnance Inter Ordnance listing shown below Inter ordnance 's description is difficult to view, here is a IO Quote: SOURCE: https://www.interordnance.com/p/czech-dot-1945-mauser old link gone QUOTE "CZECH DOT 1945 MAUSER About the Grading -The rifles have dents, dings, scrapes, gouges, discoloration and possible small cracks in the stocks. You can also expect anywhere from minimal bluing wear to a lot of bluing wear, and we have even seen some surface rust on a few. We have not seen any rust that would not clean up well. We do offer a hand select for cosmetics that will offer you one of the nicer looking ones if that is your desire but please know that even a hand select is not going to be gorgeous.... just one of the better ones in the group. Now for the good news, as we said before these rifles have been stored intact in a military depot for quite some time. As such, they are as close to true military turn in Mauser rifles as I have ever seen. By that I mean that they do not appear to be parted together " Frankenstein " guns. Also know, that while we do not guarantee for matching numbers we have seen some that do match. In addition to that, these are very consistent in color and as a group have a certain uniformity about them that makes them appear to be true military turn in's which I am certain that they are. As a matter of fact, in that manner they are very similar to our Chinese military turn in SKS rifles. We do not warranty for cosmetic's as we have tried to be as honest as possible in describing these rifles. As such, if the possibility of receiving a rifle that is less than a beauty queen is a deal breaker, then don't order one. However, we do warranty them for function and we think that they are a tremendous value as they are as close to military turn-in's as we have ever seen for long stored Mauser's. Don't let my overly honest description of the rifles fool you. We always try to allow for the lower end in the bunch when describing our surplus because let's face it, someone is going to get the ugliest one there. Having said that, these rifles have not been as readily available in the U.S. marketplace for several years now and we are proud to be able to offer them at what we think is a fantastic price. Get yours today. No Mauser collection is complete without the addition of one of these rare Banner rifles. .... Don't Miss This.......C & R Eligible Important - As noted above these are arsenal turn in rifles and while we have done a dry function test here before shipping, the rifles have not had the bores cleaned nor have they been checked by a gunsmith. As with all surplus firearms the rifle should be thoroughly cleaned before firing. Also, please be sure that the bore is clear and unobstructed. Finally, a good rule of thumb with any surplus is to have your local gunsmith do a safety check before attempting to fire. C&R OR FFL REQUIRED " Here are some views from the above listing; --------- Screen Shot, The Goat Selecting the Rifles RTI Sends Out SRF 72 usmc post, 11 February 2020 When these Ethiopian rifles first appeared there are many first impressions on the other forums. Below are posts from 2020 that show the “talk” on Gunboards about the rifles. These two posts provide an interesting early 2020 historical perspective and pictures of the first rifles shipped to buyers. Ethiopean Mausers. SOURCE: https://www.gunboards.com/threads/ethiopean-mausers.1119483/ Also a list of what k98k rifle types RTI imported in this link: SOURCE: https://www.gunboards.com/threads/io-inc-is-releasing-ethiopian-mausers.1131651/ —————— One of the first purchased that arrived from Classic, Kevinofborg’s Ethiopian K98k From Gunboards reference #54: Kevinofborg of gunboards show pictures of his second rifle, the first was sent back since as a select, it was not what was expected (DOG). Half of the receiver markings were gone- ya Ben, that is a select. This is the first rifle shown on a forum that someone actually purchased. Post # 54. Note, this is a second select, the first one was so bad it was sent back. Ethiopean Mausers. SOURCE: https://www.gunboards.com/threads/ethiopean-mausers.1119483/page-3 These are Kevin's photos from 8 May 2020. No view of the import mark or mention of the import mark. Most likely a IO mark! Classics's are all purchases from IO & resold at a huge mark up ? In all of the views on line, I would say these rifles appear a wee bit Ruff for $700 + shipping + a select pick, + a possible FFL transfer fee. Cost really can increase, especially if you have to ship a rifle back. Let me think, IO kept some of the best as quoted in the interview, and Classic sent some of the better ones they had to be refurbished by JRA, -- so that leaves the worse in the Classic pile to sell at $700 a pop. I am going to wait and see if Inter Ordnance (IO) sells any of these as select with individual descriptions & pictures. Maybe that old goat selecting his rifle in that pile has more common sense than most of Classic's buyers. Classic’s Description for the Ethiopian K98k rifles QUOTE “Rare Rare Rare, NEVER IMPORTED INTO THE US BEFORE! Czech made K.98 K last war production with large winter trigger. These rifles were manufactured on German equipment in Czechoslovakia, at Brno and the Banská Bystrica plant. The codes are dot 45, swp 45 and dou 45. The rifles were made for export to Ethiopia for the emperor Haile Selassie . The rifles are identical to the German made K.98K but instead of the NAZI eagle the rifles have the Czech lion stamped on the receiver and barrel. Also the firearms have the “St. George” coin embedded in the stock as a symbol for Ethiopia. These guns were not known to exist. They are nowhere found in any literature. The condition is good to very good. All rifles feature the large winter trigger magazine, a laminated stock and the late war stamped bands. Overall we would say that these guns average about 50% of original bluing. These guns have been in Africa for 75 years and are in 100% original condition. Again these guns were not known to exist and are extremely rare. We only have a small quantity of these rifles available. We do offer a hand select in which we will pick the best of 20 from any particular group. This is a must for every collector. C&R OR FFL REQUIRED” END OF QUOTE RTI Royal Tiger Imports Czech Ethiopian Mausers Description It is the same as the IO description, the same company, just a later descriptive offering and cost. RTI began offering select options at a cost. The RTI description is the same as the IO description. Note a sudden price reduction from $800 to $650, but the select options push it back up. They must have got too many complaints for poor condition specimens sold at top dollar in 2020. Like I said in todays market, I do not see these at auctions or gun shows. ------ by 72usmc Fri 18 Dec 2020, a final example Ethiopian RTI Vz 98N, Sold by Royal Tiger Imports. This is a Czechoslovak late K98k with some great photos & historical information that is from an early post on Gunboards: Ethiopian Vz98N by Abulg1972. SOURCE: https://www.gunboards.com/threads/ethiopian-vz98n.1179020/ This above Gunboard's forum post from 18 Dec 2020 is a fantastic treasure trove of photos. I wish all the examples sold by RTI were as fine as this example. This is a documentation of an exceptional condition rifle not generally received from the sellers. He won the buyers gamble. The Ethiopian K98k owner is Abulg1972. This a must view post with over 30 replys. Notice, the bolt actually matches the receiver. Conclusion bnz41john on Gunboards states: QUOTE “Below are photos from 1955 of Ethiopian soldiers marching with these rifles. If you pay close attention you can see that they have the coins in the buttstock… The dot factory was known by the Germans as the Brunn I factory. dou was known as the Brunn II factory. Brunn I transitioned from the dot code to the swp code in late 1944 into 1945. There are ZERO dot 1945 k98ks that were made by the Germans. When Germany fell, Brunn I continued to manufacture k98ks under the swp45 code. Eventually transitioning back to the dot 1945 code. Why they did this I do not know. Looks to be a good rifle to get you into the Mauser world. The stash of rifles coming out of Ethiopia are pretty neat!” SOURCE https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/1945-czech-98k-brno-factory-have-some-questions.40034/ 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72 usmc Posted August 17, 2022 Author Share Posted August 17, 2022 Gewehr 98 to K98k Interwar Conversion Back in the day most wanted a intact matching Gewehr 98 or a true K98k bring back with papers. The Gew 98 modified into a K98K was an odd ball. They were around in the barrels full of surplus junk rifles in the early 1960s in the United States. Later, some were sold by Cummings' International Armament Corporation, also known as Interarms. At that time, I passed and wanted a matching WW I Gew 98 and a WW II K98k. Most did not want some modified interwar conglomeration. These Conversion Gew 98 to K98k rifles were in less demand than an intact, all matching, Imperial Gewehr 98 or for that matter a bring back German K98k. Interwar conversion K98k rifles are odd rebuilds that never sold for the same kind of money as original pieces. Most do not have import marks, most found are well used rifles. Most recognize that both rifles share some similarities, but the K98k and Gewehr 98 are not the same. The Gewehr 98 appeared in 1898, while the K98k appeared in 1935. The Gewehr 98 served as a primary German service rifle in WW I and was in use until 1935. The K98k served as a primary German service rifle in WW II and was in use from 1935 -1945. The Gew 98 rifle and its bayonet was too long for close-up trench warfare during WW I. Consequently, the K98k rifle and its bayonet were designed shorter. The Gew 98 was slightly heavy weighing in at approximately 9 lbs (4.09kg) and is 49 inches long (1,250mm). Its barrel measures approximately 29 inchs (740mm). The K98k was lighter and shorter. It weighs in at approximately 8 lbs (3.7.kg) and is 43.7 inches long (1,110mm). Its barrel measures approximately 23.6-inchs (600mm). Both rifles have a 5 round internal magazine and fire 8mm Mauser ammunition. During the interwar period this fine WW I rifle design was slightly altered to become a short carbine K98k. As seen from the specifications, the K98k design resulted in a somewhat shorter, lighter, version of the original Gewehr 98. After the WW I, some Gew 98s in storage were converted to a K98k configuration. Around 1939, Germany needed more firearms for its expanding army and made use of old armory stock piles of the long rifle Gew 98s sitting in storage. The Gewehr 98s were converted into K98ks by shortening them up. A Gew 98 converted into a K98k is considered an odd, make-do, K98k variation. Some conversions retained the original stock while others received new K98 stocks. If the original stock was serviceable, it was modified to fit. The original rear sling swivel was removed, the hole patched, and then a K98 style sling slot was cut into the old stock. Most were refitted with new laminated stocks. During the conversion, the straight Gew 98 bolts were switched to bent bolts. Some have original Gew bolts that were bent and retain their Imperial German markings, others have replacement K98k bolts. Barrels were generally well used so they were replaced with a new K98k barrel, although some examples of converted K98k specimens have their original Gew 98 barrel cut down and recrowned. I would think at a depot factory it would be much faster to install a replacement K98k new barrel, or for that matter a new K98k stock. The old Gew 98 sights were replaced with the typical K98k updated front and rear sights. Some collectors consider this Gew 98 to K98k conversion an interesting variant of K98k. Some consider such a “Type” specimen a necessary addition to any Mauser collection. Unlike the mid 1960s, these variations are a difficult find at present day gun shows or auctions. They only seem to surface when an older collector sells off a collection. Genuine Gew 98 to K98k conversions are quite rare and seldom seen. All matching examples with all Imperial marked original parts are a great find. Most seem to be odd balls that are cobbled together misfits. Current collectors like true bonafide examples of this K98k variation and seek them out. Attributes of a Gew 98 to K98k Conversion The attributes of a Gew 98 to K98k conversion are as follows. The receiver will have Imperial German WW I markings and dates. Some have the 1920 property stamp added onto the receiver markings. The side rail is marked GEW 98, not Mod 98. They do not have K98k receivers. In most cases the barrels were replaced with new K98k shorter barrels, cut off Gew 98 barrels on conversions seem rare. Gew 98s and K98ks differ in the length of the barrel. A Gew original barrel measures 29 inches, in contrast the conversion K98k barrel measures approximately 23 1/2 inches. In some cases the barrel has been tooled down from an original; alterations are seen at both at the muzzle (shortened/ cut) and the step found under the handguard is modified. Original Gew. 98 rifles have straight bolt stems that are positioned horizontally when the bolt is closed. These were upgraded to a bent bolt like found on a K98k. The K98k bolt handle is bent downwards which allows for more comfortable bolt operation. Most conversion rifles do have matching bolts. But more than a few do not. A good number have their original Imperial marked bolt bent and it maintains the same serial number as found on the receiver. The bolt can also be the turned down model from a later version K98k. The stocks are modified or get new replacements. If the conversion is refitted with a new K98k stock, it is a laminated replacement stock in the K98k configuration with correct inletting. Some conversions retained the original stock, then more work was required with the original rear sling swivel removed and a patch put in. It required a new k98k style sling slot to be machined into the buttstock. It seems most received a replacement stock. Karabiner K98k rifles made after 1936 had laminated stocks that are stronger and resisted warping in cold climates. If the specimen has a replacement K98k stock it will have a cupped, late style butt plate, not the GEW 98 butt plate. If the specimen has a replacement K98K stock it will most likely have a milled rear barrel brand with sling bar (K98k style) not the original thin GEW 98 barrel band with a sling loop at the bottom. Each rifle has different sling mountings. The Gew 98 has two sling swivels, the K98k has only one, a forward swivel. On the conversion, the rear swivel is removed and the mount hole repaired. A wood filler plug is installed. A K98k style slot for the sling is cut into the buttstock. Sling modification. The sling hole in the buttstock was added if the conversion kept the original stock. The converted rifle will have different rear sights: Gew 98’s have a curved, tangent sight, often referred to as the roller coaster sight. This original rear roller coaster sight is removed and replaced with the conversion K98k leaf type rear sight commonly found on all K98k carbines. The front sights are of the open, barleycorn type found on the Gew 98s. These seem to be altered by cutting a groove or adding grooved front sights for use with the removable German front sight hoods. All conversions have the groove, but not all have the sight hood in place. Parts generally do not match the receiver’s serial number, but they are all Gewehr parts. Parts will have Imperial markings. Some conversions are all matching with a bent Gew 98 original bolt. Most rifles are well worn nearing the end of their service life. Many are 1920 property marked on the top of the receiver. All conversions retain the Gew 98 trigger guard with the sling attachment hole for the sling swivel clip clasp. All rifles received shorter cleaning rods. I do not know if they are 10.5 or 12.5 inch rods. Most parts retain the Imperial Gewehr markings. So in conclusion, if you are lucky enough to find a specimen make sure all the attribute boxes are checked. Look for original Gewehr 98 parts and markings, stock modifications if present - a dovetailed stock repair and a sling inlet cut, a bent original bolt or K98k replacement bolt, and a correct Gew 98 trigger guard. Does it have its original WW I stock and metal, and are the parts numbered to match? True genuine Gewehr 98 to K98k conversions are quite rare and are now seldom found on the market. Below is an interesting video displaying a Gew 98 Conversion to a K98K variant. German Gewehr 98 Converted to a K98k, Video by Milsurp World, May 18, 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZfaU29mjo ———————— German WW2 K98 Mauser, an interesting Gew Rebuild I am providing photos and links for three specimens. The first is Libertytreecollector's Spandau 1917 with a replacement barrel. The second is Beswick's, 1918, C G Haenal Suhl, K98k conversion with the original Gew 98 barrel cut down. These two examples are from the old SRF post. The original photos have been removed from the primary sources. I documented photos on SRF because if one has an outdated computer sometimes the links do not open. Other times the original link/post is gone/deleted. This is what happened over time. All original photos were removed in the primary sources for both of these examples. However, posting them on the SRF preserved some photos and these remain as the only photographic record. I have reproduced in this post the few photos that I documented on SRF. So here is a documented record of two nice Gew 98s converted to K98k rifles. I have added a third. 72 usmc posted The Libertytreecollector's example is an odd duck, a K98k made up from a rebuilt GEW 98 in 1937. Not what I would call a cheep or a commonly found K98. Times have changed. Recently, I have not seen one of these at a gun show in WI. I wonder how many of these were made? SOURCE: (The primary source of the information presented below is Liberty, but they removed the posting as of Dec 14 2019; it is an Inactive link) https://www.libertytreecollectors.com/productcart/pc/msg.asp?message=95 Libertytreecollector’s Description: QUOTE “This offering is for the pictured German WW2 K98 Mauser Rifle. An interesting configuration of parts, likely assembled into K98 configuration as need for the war effort. From the Craig Brown German Mauser Collection. Receiver is WW1 Spandau Arsenal, dated 1917, metal finish is mostly a worn blue, attractive gun metal gray in most of the receiver area. Serial numbers no longer match but these parts match the receiver, barrel, rear sight, bolt stop, butt plate, follower, floor plate and trigger guard. Band are mis matched and unmarked. Bolt is mis matched. Barrel is an Erma marked replacement. Sound Laminated stock and hand guard, both un numbered. Chambered in 8mm Mauser the bore is brite with very good rifling, slight frost in the grooves. Not import marked.” END OF QUOTE When it's sold the pictures will be gone, so here are eight screen shots from Libertytreecollector's photos so they stay as a record. ———————- Haenal Suhl Geh 98 Rework Beswick, March 2010, K98k FORUM Another example: Beswick's, 1918, C G Haenal Suhl, Gew98 is a rework to a K98k posted on the K98k forum. QUOTE “1918 C.G. Haenal Suhl Gew.98 converted to K98k specs. I assume this rifle went through more than one rebuild/repair as not all parts are renumbered to match, but have wear consistent with the rifle. The bands are both numbered 4784. The barrel was cut down as opposed to being replaced.” END OF QUOTE Here is a link to the K98 forum with some nice close up views of Beswick's C G Haenal Suhl Gew98 conversion to a K98k. You got to see this fine example; compliments of the K98 forum link shown below. He has some great views. Unfortunately due to photobucket, the photos on the primary source are now gone. SOURCE: https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/c-g-haenal-suhl-gew-98-rework.216/ Here are the pictures from the original source that were posted on my SRF post. These remained intact. All pictures are originally from the K98k Forum. These are screen shots taken from (Beswick's photos). In the primary post on the K98k forum, Photobucket has blurred, then removed the photos. Only these lower five views remain intact. Never use PHOTOBUCKET to post photos into any forum! ————————— V.Chr.Schilling Suhl 1917 Gew.98 to K98k Conversion, THunter, March 2016 A third Example. The knowledgeable, advanced Mauser collectors on the K98k Forum have some great finds. Note the condition and patina of the metal and wood on this final example documented from the K98k Forum. I guess if one was lucky to find one in such nice condition, the price would be beyond the reach of most. Values seem to be around $1000 and who knows at todays market's crazy prices. Most likely much more. This is a V.Chr.Schilling Suhl 1917 Gew.98 to K98k Conversion owned by member THunter. He posted on the K98k Forum on Mar 12, 2016. THunter states: QUOTE "I picked this up a few months ago and wanted to share it. Its a 1917 V.Chr.Schilling Suhl Gew.98 that has been converted to K98k configuration. The original barrel was kept and shortened. The stock is an armorers replacement and is 'C' marked on the heel and E/18 marked in the barrel channel. Recoil lug and bayonet lug are imperial marked. A non matching walnut handguard was reused. No depot proofs anywhere on the action or wood. The rear band and bandspring are unmarked. Almost all the rear sight components are P74 save for the WaA63 spring. It came with a nice L&F marked sling and 'jxn 1943' marked keeper too.Unfortunately the bolt does not match. Bolt looks to be out of a bnz 44? Intersting notes: -The cleaning rod nut, is simply a nut that has been threaded and was placed inside the cleaning rod nut hole. -The stock was not drilled for the bayonet lug pin. -The recycled walnut handguard has a metal ring added to the lip for reinforcement. -The stock was not relieved for the early type receiver tang, causing the rear of the action to stinkbug in the stock. With all the nice work of converting the action and parks to K98k specs, you would think whoever did the stock work would've paid more attention to detail?” END OF QUOTE The forum link has many photos. If it does not allow a view. I have provided some group screen views in order to document this final example. Here are four block photos. The web source allows for close up views of each photo. You have to be a member. SOURCE: https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/v-chr-schilling-suhl-1917-gew-98-to-k98k-conversion.21438/ Here ends this section. Unfortunately I do not own an example, so I cannot provide detailed information. These are rather evasive on a web search. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72 usmc Posted August 19, 2022 Author Share Posted August 19, 2022 Hungarian G98/40 NOT COMMON AT ALL NOT A K98k. A very odd form/variant of k98? It really has nothing in common with the K98k other than caliber. It is more similar to a Hungarian Mannlicher rifle with a split stock. It is at least a sort of K98 looking thing? It is so odd, that I had to post it on SRF when I first saw a link to one. This will be the final rifle review on this Treasure Bunker post. Very few Hungarian G98/40 rifles appear on the U.S. collector's market. The G98/40 is a specimen that is never seen, and it is not at all a common rifle in the U.S. Maybe most were lost in WW II. I am providing this background information because I never seen one and do not know anything about this odd rifle. I have no idea if they are more plentiful in Europe. You rarely see any in U.S. auctions. This was posted on the SRF forum under the former SRF heading, “Military Surplus K98ks commonly found at gun shows,” even though it is only somewhat close to a K98k; call it, its long lost cousin? Apparently no K98 parts will fit a Hungarian G98/40. What follows are a variety of the posted references for those that want some information. Such a rifle would be indeed be a nice find; like finding a small pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Hungarian G98/40 Reference 1 German G98/40: A Hungarian Rifle Pressed into German Service by Milsurp World, Sep 18 2020 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjftFl4zcRU Reference 2 Here is a video from Forgotten Weapons on Hungarian rifles: Hungarian WWII Rifles (35M, 43M, G98/40) by Forgotten Weapons, Ian McCullun, Jun 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVojDUEmfjs Reference 3 Hungarian Weapons - Mannlicher G98/40 Infantry Rifles Some more written documentation and history with close up photos if you ever actually see one of these rare rifles. This is a nice web page. Quote “These German contract guns were made by Fémáru Fegyver és Gépgyár, Budapest, which company possibly subcontracted some or all of the work to Danuvia Gépgyár, Budapest 1941-44 There is a disagreement, where these guns were actually made. Most US collectors claim these were made only by Fémáru, based on that the receivers are stamped 'jhv', the German Ordnance code for Fémáru. Danuvia made G98/40 should have been marked with 'jua', Danuvia's German Ordnance code, and no such G98/40 have been reported. This appears to be a very strong case, however the Hungarian Ministry of Defense archives from the 1960's refer to the G98/40 as Danuvia made. According to several European collectors, the G98/40's were made by both factories, with Fémáru using Danuvia as a subcontractor. Other Europeans claim, these were made by Danuvia only. Quite a few references can be found in Europe calling the rifle 'Danuvia G98/40'. Hungarian sources are split on this issue…” END OF QUOTE The direct web page to reference 3 with some fantastic photographs of this rifle is found here: http://www.hungariae.com/Mann9840.htm It is also stored on the Wayback Machine Archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20190528202217/http://www.hungariae.com/Mann9840.htm ———— Some Examples With Photos 72 usmc posted on SRF I first saw an example at the Libertytreecollector’s Reference Library. I have never seen one of these in person. I did not know they even existed. Pictures and the description of the rifle that is shown below are obtained from the source. Libertytreecollector’s Reference library has posted an example with great detailed photos. German Model G98/40 Rifle jvh 1943 REF Libertytreecollector’s Description: QUOTE “German Model G98/40 Rifle. In good looking condition and produced in 1943 from the jhv arsenals in Hungary under German wartime control. A mix of Mauser and Mannlicher features it has a good military look. The bolt serial number is mis-matched to the rifle but the bolt and rifle numbers match themselves. Sound stock and handguard, matched in color tone with inspection cartuches present, few small dings and compressions from use and long storage. Metal surfaces are blued wearing thin, mostly on the receivers top and trigger guard area with a few pin prick patina spots. Chambered in 8mm Mauser the bore is brite with smooth very good+ lands and grooves. Not import marked.” END OF QUOTE Here are some of their Reference Library photos: SOURCE: https://www.libertytreecollectors.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=6389&idcategory=82 ————————- jhv G98/40 dated 1941 by Badger in the Milsurp's Reference Library An example is also well documented by Badger in the Milsurp’s Reference Library. The photo archive has its own link to view this G98/40 dated 1941 example; it provides 74 pictures of the rifle’s details. A link to just the photos album: SOURCE: https://imageevent.com/badgerdog/cgnmilsurpknowledgebase/g9840andy The primary source has very detailed information and the above photo album. The goggle search title is: 1941 Code jhv G98/40 Infantry Rifle Serial #1a SOURCE (this is a great reference): http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=231-1941-Code-jhv-G98-40-Infantry-Rifle-Serial-1a Below is the information reproduced as a quote from the Milsurp’s description in case the reader cannot gain access: QUOTE "Observations: by Andy Note: Rifle provided courtesy of MILSURPS.COM Advisory Panel member "Andy" with photo montage pictures taken by "Claven2". The Mannlicher Gew.98/40 German Infantry Rifle was known by the Germans as the Infanterie Gewehre G98/40. These German contract guns were made from 1941 to 1944 by Fémáru Fegyver és Gépgyár, Budapest, (German Ordnance code “jhv”), with some or all of the work possibly subcontracted to Danuvia Gépgyár, Budapest (German Ordnance code “jua”). {Note added by Claven2: During the war, the German’s referred to Fémáru Fegyver és Gépgyár, Budapest as Metallwaren-Waffen und Maschinenfabrik, Budapest (HU). After the war, the arms maker became known commonly as “FEG”. A full list of codes, including jhv, and most WaA's can be referenced in the following Milsurps Knowledge Library entry: "Das Heereswaffenamt" (Detailed Listing of German WaA Markings and Codes)} The Hungarian-made G98/40 is not a mauser, and shares nothing significant with the G98, rather it is a mannlicher-based receiver design patterned after the Hungarian 35M, the only firearm ever purpose-built for the 8x56R cartridge. The G98/40 was contracted as a war-expedient, to exploit the existing 35M tooling. They were issued primarily to the Luftwaffe. Distinguishing features of the G98/40 include: - mannlicher-based receiver design with all steel parts blued; - two-piece bolt with detachable bolt-heads, and bolt handle positonned ahead of the receiver bridge; - chambered in 8x57; - two-piece stock system (similar to that found on the Lee Enfield). Early stocks were walnut, later laminate; and - mauser sling, bayonet and staggered row magazine designs, allowing the use of the K98 sling, bayonet and stripper clips. In 1943, the Hungarian Government, adopted a variation of the G98/40 known as the 43M, which differs slightly in sling and bayonet arrangements, but is otherwise identical to the G98/40. Collector's Comments and Feedback: 1. Production numbers of G98/40 rifles by year, according to best available sources, are as follows: Manufacturing data: 1941: 33000 1942: 32000 1943: 59000 1944: 14400 Total: 138400 At some point in 1943, the WaA inspection number used on these rifles switched from WaA56 to WaA173. G98/40 infantry rifles are among the rarest Third Reich infantry rifles a collector is likely to encounter and should be recognized and purchased at any opportunity, if possible. Available numbers of examples today indicate that either very few rifles survived the war, or the countries who may still have them aren't releasing them for sale at this time. Little more is known about the G98/40 series rifles as the region fell under the communist sphere of influence during the Cold War and much documentation was lost. Hungary's modern-day gun laws are very restrictive and civilian interest in firearms is not strongly encouraged. As such, locating material by "local experts" is difficult or even unlikely. .......... (Feedback by "Claven2") 2. It has come to the attention of the Advisory Panel that at least as early as 1943, G98/40's were serialized on the bolt root in fonts similar to the K98k with a script letter suffix. The example depicted here, rifle serial number 1a - jhv41, is not so numbered. Rather, the bolt is numbered in a "sans-serif" font without suffix on the bolt knob. Examination of the photos of this rifle will show the serial numbered parts are a mixture of serif and sans-serif numbers. None of the numbered locations readily appears to have been ground and renumbered. Pictures have been added courtesy of the owner showing detailed photos of the bolt root area. At this time, we cannot conclude obvious scrubbing, grinding, milling, sanding, etc. on the root and the root shelf remains well defined to the eye. If the bolt has been scrubbed of another number, we can not readily discern it. It may be possible that given the rifle's early manufacture date and serial number that the "accepted convention" for numbering had not yet been standardized when this rifle was produced. It may also be possible the bolt was an un-numbered armorer's replacement. These explanations remain conjecture. At this time though, the collector should be aware that for the majority of G98/40 examples encountered, the bolt should be numbered at the root in a fashion reminiscent of K98k production. .......... (Feedback by "Claven2") This article was originally published in forum thread: 1941 Code jhv G98/40 Infantry Rifle Serial #1a started by Badger View original post” END OF QUOTE I am also including a link to the Wayback Machine Archive if the above Milsurps link fails to open. Milsurps limits the number of views to non members. SOURCE: https://web.archive.org/web/20171116011108/http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=231-1941-Code-jhv-G98-40-Infantry-Rifle-Serial-1a Forum Posts Finally, here is some more information, history, and discussion on Gunboard's older posts: 1) New info on G98/40 Rifles (Pcvando's Research) Pcvando states: QUOTE "I have been collecting information, and viewing pictures and examples of G98/40 rifles in order to better understand and try to conclude some long running myths and misinformation surrounding the G98/40 series of rifles. I have reviewed a lot of info on this forum, as well as around the internet, and sadly much of it is wrong. Below are the findings of my research - I have spent much time finding this info, and if you are personally interested in my findings, please PM me, I would be more than happy to give it all to you. I will do my best to eventually add all the pictures and documents that support my statements. ____ The first thing I wanted to clarify for everyone is the serial number misconception. The G98/40 serial number production started at 1a. There was never a "no suffix" block. This is the serial number range: 1941: 37000 pieces - [est: 0001a - 7000d] (reported: 9500a - 6579d) 1942: 28000 pieces - [est: 7001d - 5000g] (reported: 7012e - 2163g) 1943: 50000 pieces - [est: 5001g - 5000l] (reported: 5355i - 5800k) 1944: 23400 pieces - [est: 5001l - 8400n] (reported: 5535l - 2679m) The first rifle produced was 1a. _____ Second critical piece of evidence: It would appear that all early rifles in the "a" suffix first block did not originally have numbered safeties. I have examined many "a" block rifles (finding them was hard enough) and all appear to have earlier "NY" 35M style safeties. So, if the rifle is "a" block, and it has a NY early safety, it is correct. I am not sure when the transition occurred, but I suspect it was mid-late "a" block, then they began numbering safeties. If you have an early "a" suffix rifle with a numbered safety - check the font, and it is likely way different. This is because it may be an armoures replacement. The majority I encountered were not numbered. _____ Third piece of new information: Early single and double digit "a" block serial numbers were NOT numbered on the bolt root. Rather, they appear to all be numbered on the bolt knob. I have examined several early "a" block rifles, including a few low 1 digit numbered rifles, and they are all like this. The rear part of the bolt that holds the safety are also generally numbered on these early "a" blocks. I suspect they switched when the numbers became too large to put on the bolt head. Possibly after 999a. _____ Fourth new piece of info: The font's on early rifles appears to be different on certain parts. Also, not all parts share the suffix. Mainly only the butt on early "a" suffix rifles. I cannot yet explain why, but it is consistent among all the early single, double and triple digit "a" block rifles I examined. They all share this same characteristic. _____ Overall, I believe these findings indicate that the early first production rifles, and the majority of the "a" block have a slightly different numbering system and they were experimenting on how to number certain parts, what to number, and how to number them. If you have an "a" block rifle, please PM me. I hope this info clears up some of the misconceptions, and gives those potential perplexed people some more info. Thanks" END OF QUOTE SOURCE also good) https://www.gunboards.com/threads/new-info-on-g98-40-rifles.479617/ 2) What is the 98/40? https://www.gunboards.com/threads/what-is-the-98-40.163185/ 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72 usmc Posted August 22, 2022 Author Share Posted August 22, 2022 Conclusion So ends the easy to find K98k's. For those that are lucky and have the cash it's always nice to have an actual German, all matching K98k with its sling or a K98k with just a miss matched bolt that actually matches itself-- With bring back papers, even better. Unfortunately, it is now an expensive adventure. In the good days, say around 2000-2013, surplus rifles were imported by the boat loads into America. The fun in collecting was going to the local store, sporting shop, or hardware store and see what new rifles would show up every month or so. Sporting stores like Dunhams, and Gander Mountain, the local hardware stores, and Fleet & Farm always had racks full of rifles. If one had a Curio and Relics collectors U. S. license (C&R), milsurps were easy to obtain. A C&R firearm can be mail ordered and shipped to one’s house. Most collectors would purchase ten to twenty of the same specimens and then pick out the best 5 to keep and sell off the excess. Some purchased rifles just for their parts. In the United States the ATF recognizes a classification of C & R firearms, and Antique firearms. Curios & Relics are defined by the U.S ATF as follows: QUOTE “A regulation implementing federal firearms laws, 27 CFR § 478.11, defines curio or relic (C&R) firearms as those which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as C&R items, firearms must fall within one of the following categories: 1 Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms; 2 Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and 3 Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.” END OF QUOTE SOURCE : https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics In contrast, an antique firearm is not considered a viable firearm and can be purchased like a common vintage collector’s museum piece. The ATF defines an Antique firearm in the United States as: QUOTE “National Firearms Act Definitions Antique Firearm 26 U.S.C. § 5845(G) For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Antique Firearms” means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.” END OF QUOTE SOURCE: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-national-firearms-act-definitions-antique Most WW I and WW II firearms enthusiasts in the U.S obtained their C&R certificate/license so the can purchase direct from the importer and cut out the middle man. In spite of that convenience, most collectors still went on the hunt to the local stores to find that special rifle in excellent condition, a specific year, or specific markings. The hunt was actually more fun than actually owning a wall of rifles. It was a social affair where you got to meet people, have discussions and go on forums, got to know store owners that saved the good stuff for you, and fellow collectors that would get together and drive all over the state in the search for new finds. The reader has to realize that these surplus rifles were dirt cheep during the time period (2000-2013) (the Second Golden Age of Surplus Firearms). The average price is ranging from $39-$100. We all collected what we liked. I collected type specimens, but back then before I sold off my collection, I collected M91/30 Tula Russian Mosins by the year- one example for each year of production. Some had crates full of Turk Mausers, others collected every code of K98k rifles they could find, but in the less expensive form of Russian Captures. You could walk into a store at that time and see approximately 25-30 rifles of the same type. We select the best of the best. Milsurp firearms were abundant in the U. S. and cost way less than the price of a new rifle at a store around 2000. How times have changed! In 2022, the era of the cheap surplus rifles has come to an end. One sees mainly poor condition examples, prices have sky rocketed, and availability is sparse. For example in 2012, $49 for a Russian Mosin 91/30 rifle was the going rate. The Mosin, that plentiful, dirt-cheap, bolt action rifle that every kid can afford for hunting, or for shooting a real military classic WW II weapon, is now selling for $300-400. The best influx of affordable surplus military WW II rifles came from Russian, and Com-block countries in the form of Mosin Nagant 91/30 rifles and that odd 1895 Nagant Revolver. Talk about junk with a horrible trigger pull and no ammo- it’s the Nagant revolver. But with the Tula star, it is a specimen everyone wanted for $59. It just smelled Russian! Now in 2022, sellers want $400 for an example of that revolver! There were so many at stores in America, I never thought either WW II firearm would command a premium. Russia and the former Warsaw Pact countries sold massive volumes of military surplus firearms. The flood gates opened and the United States had a rifle that sold cheeper than a new American made .22 rifle. Even most pellet gun replicas cost more than a real WW II relic. It was unbelievable. Never in a 100 years would I have guessed the supply would dry up. The US market’s current trends indicate a lack of incoming surplus and price gouging. Military surplus firearms are getting to the end of the line. Most specimens are in collections. There are only so many WW I and WWII rifles sitting in arsenals. Those easy to find supplies have dry up. The world’s armies do not use bolt action rifles, they are outdated. Government interference by anti gun politicians does not help the hobby. Most anti gun groups see no difference between historical or antique pieces and contemporary firearms in the U.S. Most think surplus firearms are to be crushed, torch cut or chopped into pieces, melted down, possibly be deactivated, or have new regulations and taxes to make firearm ownership too costly to obtain large collections. Currently in America, there is a slow and steady price increase in milsurps. Even with sharp increases in value, many younger collectors arise due to the awareness of a particular firearm from new literature and references, as well as computer combat video games. Air gun military replicas also promote the curiosity for a real example. Most of the younger generation do their research prior to buying a surplus rifle at todays crazy prices. On line forums help, but introductory videos like “Forgotten Weapons” and the older NRA informational VHS tapes called the “Tales of the Gun” series play a factor in education. Hollywood war movies have provided an awakening interest in surplus firearms. This seems to have occurred during two time periods producing popular war movies. Around 1998-2006 new movies that attracted interest include Saving Private Ryan (1998), Band of Brothers (2001), Windtalkers (2001), Flags of our Fathers (2006), and Letter of Iwo Jima (2006). Later around 2010-2015, Hollywood added blockbusters Pacific (2010), Fury (2014), Hacksaw Ridge (2016) and Midway (2018). With the WW I Centennial’s new documentaries like Apocalypse WW I (2016) and They shall grow old (2018) they awakened interests toward forgotten WW I firearms in the younger 25-45 age group. Most seem to have cash to burn on new toys. Japanese and Italian rifles saw an increase in demand as well as WW I Gewehr 98s and SMLEs on the American market. New buyers do not seek out a K98k because it is a contemporary shooter, it’s the historical mystique of being the “Backbone of the Wehrmacht”, a relic of WW II, that peeks their interest. The collector’s new found knowledge from many sources sparks their interest and creates a desire to acquire a specimen to study and shoot. To me, the fun in collecting is the hunt and learning about a specific relic weapon and its history. Armed with a basic knowledge the buyer goes on the hunt for the best specimen for his or her collection. While demand is strong, the supply of better examples is currently slim with 2022 prices on the increase. Due to limited specimens appearing on the market, the high 2022 price is generally firm, no more haggling. If you see an excellent condition surplus firearm you best grab it fast. It came from someone’s collection. They are no longer being imported and are difficult to find or purchase. The sellers know this, especially if they own a well conditioned nice example. When first appearing in great numbers around 2012, an inexpensive K98k Russian Capture (RC) sold retail around $150-200. In 2022, RC values have climbed to $600-700. There is no such thing as a "fair" price for a K98. There are no longer any stores with big inventories competing against each other. Few specimens are seen and their type, condition, maker’s code, completeness and accessories, factor into a wide spectrum of pricing for a single K98k at public venues where surplus firearms are sold. With K98ks, current pricing is based on what the market will bear. Rarity and condition are two big factors in value and desirability. I hope this post provides the reader useful identification attributes detailing a few of the more common K98k surplus rifles found in the period of the Second Golden Age of Surplus Firearms. With added knowledge the buyer has the ability to separate out the rare from the common, the correct from the incorrect, the best example from an average example. Armed with a basic knowledge the buyer can select the best specimen for his or her collection. Given todays prices, most of the K98k surplus military rifles are priced well beyond reach of most. While most cannot afford numerous examples, they can obtain a single type specimen. New collectors hunt down the better example and pay handsomely. Or if on a limited budget, some obtain the bottom of the barrel specimens commonly seen in the market. Why, because all us old guys got the good stuff in the gun room. Historical surplus military firearms and accessories have proven to hold steady in their value and are just going up with inflation. WW I and WW II have the distinction of the being the largest and most impactful wars in history. World War surplus firearms hold the interests of more than a few. Milsurp caches are drying up. New collectors seem to only see the bottom of the barrel examples, older collectors are holding onto to their all matching treasures they found during the Second Golden Age of Surplus Firearms. Political climate, UN import regs getting worse, destruction of excess arms rather than selling as discarded surplus, a lack of product in arsenal storage, changes in state U.S. gun laws all have a limiting effect to the access of military surplus firearms, even outdated bolt action rifles like the K98k. All of these factors seem to have resulted in a historical renaissance, quality specimens are in greater demand. With a declining supply, the result is prices go up to crazy levels that most of us old guys never thought possible. Unfortunately, for some with limited funds, milsurp collecting and target shooting as a hobby is essentially dead due to prohibitively expensive prices on the rifles and now ammo availability. It is becoming a younger rich mans hobby. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gildwiller1918 Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 Good stuff, I also have a C&R and agree that it is getting tough to find good examples for a decent price. The prices have doubled and tripled for some guns. But I am glad I got my collection when I did, and will still collect more in the future, just have to have patience and some serious money, lol. Seriously 72 USMC, very informative and excellent thread. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Andrew Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 Excellent thread USMC, are you happy with it now, will I remove the word "Draft" from the title? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72 usmc Posted August 29, 2022 Author Share Posted August 29, 2022 Yes it is done thank you. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 Extremely well detailed information, you learn something new each time, thank you. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddieq Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 Excellent, many thanks for sharing. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72 usmc Posted November 21, 2022 Author Share Posted November 21, 2022 A travesty and a warning of GARBAGE fakery--- LIKE A MITCHELL MAUSER: see 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gildwiller1918 Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 Thanks for posting, it's a shame to modify and alter a historical piece, but it pays to know your subject and do your research. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72 usmc Posted January 17, 2023 Author Share Posted January 17, 2023 Rampant Lion Crested Israeli K98k Specimen A member by the name of Cody M on GB inherited an Israeli K98k Mauser that is about as mint as one can find. This is the hardest to find version even in beat condition; to find one like this is beyond belief. He allowed be to show his pictures. Here is the original link: https://www.gunboards.com/threads/israeli-k98-that-i-inherited.1234837/page-2#post-11191723 All photos are from the OP And here is the missing Israeli bayonet... another hard find. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72 usmc Posted July 8, 2023 Author Share Posted July 8, 2023 An interesting new video on the Israeli K98k 's history by Mark Felton. How Nazi Guns Saved Israel 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72 usmc Posted October 10, 2023 Author Share Posted October 10, 2023 10 Oct 2023 A batch of 100 Portuguese B contract 1941 byf GermanK98k rifles have been uncovered and imported into the U.S. in 2023 and sold asap within 10 minutes at prices of $1299 to $1899 U.S. dollars. I cannot list the source as per forum rules. These are an exciting find and they are import marked with a very small stamped mark at the bottom of the barrel by CAI. (Century Arms International) These are marked with the Portuguese crest and all dated 1941, and are second contract K98k rifles with an original sling, cleaning rod, and sight hood. The second contract (B contract) Portuguese rifles included 60,000 rifles with 50,000 delivered to Portugal. What is nice about this hoard is that none of the rifles have been refurbished in this batch. They remain in their original condition as used and stored. These are almost all matching, however, none remain as intact, complete matching specimens. These 100 rifles sold out as soon as they were posted for sale. All rifles had a import mark applied and if the German serial is a duplicate in the ATF records, a small "PB" was added (dot matrix stamped onto) to the receiver's serial number in addition to the import mark. As a result, some rifles have this PB added while others do not. All specimens have the U.S. mandated CAI import mark. At this time, I am not sure how many other American dealers will be offering these. Portuguese contract K98k rifles generally were valued at $2000-3000 each. These lacked the original sling. I show some pictures below. None are drill rifles or deactivated. All are in original 8mm mauser. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72 usmc Posted October 14, 2023 Author Share Posted October 14, 2023 Here is an interesting video about these Portuguese K98ks by Forgotten Weapons : 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72 usmc Posted October 19, 2023 Author Share Posted October 19, 2023 And another seller has a few from the batch... just priced higher I would certainly love one if they were less costly at maybe $500 Here is an interesting post showing a Norwegian capture converted Portuguese K98k to 30-06 and serial number study by Hambone on gunboards. A nice bit of research. What a piece of history! photo source is lower link. What a jewel. Portugese Contract Kar.98k Serial Study https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/portugese-contract-kar-98k-serial-study.2227/ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72 usmc Posted November 2, 2023 Author Share Posted November 2, 2023 Ethiopian rebuilt K98ks -The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly So here is a warning. Talk about Mitchells Mausers? Well, first a few years back we had Classic Arms refurbishing Russian Capture K98ks done byJames River with a nice black re-blue to the metal, a re-stamped force match on all the serial numbers (not original font), and they cleaned up the stocks and added new faked re-stamped stock cartouches. Import mark was removed. The new thing is Royal Tiger Imports is having James River rebuild the Ethiopian garbage K989ks that came out of dung piles with sewer pipe barrels. James River is know for quality workmanship. There is a drastic change in function and appearance. James River is now into refurbishing and overhauling the Ethiopian K98k rifles with worse fakery than what Mitchell was doing. Taking a clue from Classic’s move to sell rifles which are targeted at the shooter’ s market (not collectors), Royal Tiger Imports are modifying their unsellable Ethiopian K98s into replica-like K98ks with new aftermarket Criterion barrels. These are excellent quality new barrels that are also serial number re-stamped to match the original receiver’s serial number. The K98k has been numbers matched utilizing faked re-stamped serial numbers, the rifles worn metal parts have been re-blued to a more correct German blue (not the black RC blue), the stocks are refinished and newly applied fake stock cartouches added. Most have at least the Eagle H stamp added to the sanded and refinished stock, some have more faked reproduction markings. The Ethiopian dung pile specimens with rotten barrels have been converted into nice shooters with new crisp barrels and perfect headspace. Worn bare metal with dung pile rust pits have been refinished. Is it a true K98k anymore? I’d rather have an intact Russian capture than either the Classic or RTI humped K98k versions. Prices are nuts. For historic reference here is a sample of RTI descriptions. At least RTI is honest and up front about what is being done to these refurbished/overhauled Ethiopian rifles. As a collector I'd rather have a filthy, non wire wheeled, intact rusted specimen as a wall hanger at the price of $100. But they will never be sold at such a price and they had few takers at the normal price. Hence, a marketing move to destroy a historical artifact into a redone outrageous monstrosity. So the ugly ... but intact-too bad it is wire wheeled to clean the metal. Trash or treasure? we go from this above to the good refurbished/bad below I wonder how many fools are going to think these are original all matching at gun shows in the U.S. Perfect for WW II reenactors or shooters. I have not seen any of these yet at gun shows, but I believe the import mark was removed during the re-blue. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 About 25 years ago Kettner in Cologne (and elsewhere) was offering de-activated Russian capture K98s, these were all pristine/mint (or were they refurbished?) My example had all parts with matching numbers, the bolt was a complete Russian re-make, all in all, a very nice example, which I later traded on. Nowadays, all de-activated weapons have since been banned in the EU. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72 usmc Posted November 2, 2023 Author Share Posted November 2, 2023 I would love to see some pictures of any of those found at German sellers. https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/world-firearms/guide-german-k98-captures-694936/ A UK deactivated Russian Capture K98 : 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adlep2002 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Hello, A well known US Arms Dealer had two large batches of Portuguese M937A rifles for sale in a good condition and in mostly matching state. I was lucky enough to get one of these rifles from the 2nd batch released for sale on 1/3/2024. The 2nd batch sold out in about 4 hours so I am estimating at least 200-500 rifles being sold https://www.gunboards.com/threads/oos-back-at-stock-at-atlantic-firearms-portuguese-matching-m937a-k98k-combo.1251802/page-2#post-11359278 https://www.gunboards.com/threads/1937-portuguese-m937a.1250689/page-2#post-11356040 IMHO, the US Importer was generous with their pricing offering a "combo" package deal with a matching rifle, 945 rounds of ammo and a bayonet. My example is ALL matching. I know about at least one case of a good looking rifle being destroyed by UPS during transport. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72 usmc Posted January 13 Author Share Posted January 13 Quality American packing and shipping. The anti gunners didn't like the obvious long box. This occurs somewhat too often in the U. S., how does a box get bent unless its used as a wedge, pry bar, or ramp. A $1500 gun shipped in a cheep box with paper --- not even padding or bubble wrap and not even a double box. Most ship in a hard gun case, well wrapped in foam or bubble wrap inside the hard case that is then placed a double thick brown shipping box. This happen to a $50 stock I receiver. The box bent into a U shape by some chimp at UPS. Funny thing they deliver the box like it's in good condition. Of course the Christmas rush is the worst time for damaged boxes, lost books, and crushed items. Then of course it's the seller's bad packaging; and the seller states it's the poor handling at the shipper.... and then a game or cut your losses begins... And another story of my bayonet shipped in a box where it broke open and fell out during the normal USPS mail. And the goofs deliver the empty box ???? Crushed corners on $100 books, archaeological professional journals arrive crushed, with tore up covers, bent pages... yep, quality American postal system at work. It is sad. A nice, all matching specimen that is now historical garbage. Almost made me cry. Say, now we fabricate a good story --a rifle broken in action during WW II- battle damage -so it is worth twice the price 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 Get it repaired. Bring it to a capable gunsmith, the stock can be fixed with lime, this should hold as strong as ever, and the flaw can be easily concealed by them. Next time if ordering, is to arrange for transport yourself, you can get the services of a renowned professional transporteur, a spediteur, as they say here, this will ensure that there are no mishaps next time, and apart from that the consignment is insured. See example of a repaired M.1777 musket There are companies available in the US such as - https://baileysallied.com/blog/how-to-move-guns-and-gun-ammunition-with-full-service-movers 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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