Gildwiller1918 Posted January 27, 2022 Posted January 27, 2022 Here is my newly acquired Lebel model 1886/93 rifle or Fusil Modèle 1886 dit "Fusil Lebel". This rifle was chambered for 8x50mm rimmed cartridges and what really set this rifle apart from others was that it was the first to use smokeless powder which was nitrocellulose-based called "Poudre B," or Powder "B". The new powder allowed for a smaller lighter bullet to be used, which added a great deal of range and accuracy. The rifle was a repeater which utilized a tubular magazine below the barrel which could hold 8 bullets. The tubular design was not popular with military establishments at this point, and many thought the idea of giving soldiers the ability to fire rapidly would waste ammunition and lower marksmanship. However a magazine cutoff was added to this rifle to allow for single rounds to be loaded and the tubular magazine was to be held in reserve in case of breakthrough attacks or advances. The Lebel was also designed to be backwards compatible, meaning it could use parts from the previous service rifles, the Gras and Kropatschek. In 1893 the rifle underwent a modification in which the bolt was modified to help divert gases from potential ruptured cases and a new rear sight was added. This modification was officially called the Fusil Mle 1886/M 93 (as this rifle is marked). The Lebel was made at 3 government arsenals: Châtellerault, St-Etienne and Tulle. Another interesting feature was the two piece stock. To allow for higher pressures of the new bullet the stock was split between the receiver, which greatly increased strength and reduced wood waste. This feature would make it ideal for use in WW1 as a rifle grenade launch platform. The initial bullet design for the Lebel had a flat nose appearance, this was to prevent premature firing of rounds in the tubular magazine. During trials, some of the tube magazines exploded when rounds were forced inside, this was mainly due to poor primers and loads, which was corrected by adding a recessed rim around the primer in which the nose of the bullet would rest (see image below). Around 1901 the spitzer type bullet was adopted for use. As revolutionary as this rifle was, it did have some issues. First, the tube magazine through the balance of the rifle off, especially as bullets were used. Most other nations utilized stripper clips or en bloc systems, which greatly increased reload speed, the tubular magazine for the Lebel had to have each round loaded separately. The sights were not the best and lack of wood handguards on the top of the barrel led to many soldiers getting hands and fingers burned. Additionally, as ground breaking as it was, it quickly became outdated by the turn of the century. Rifles like the Mauser and Lee Enfield encouraged the French to design the next service rifle, the Berthier. Although the rifle had shortcomings, it was generally preferred over the Berthier which only held 3 rounds. However, the Lebel remained in service throughout WW1, even though the Berthier was the main service rifle. The Lebel was also used in WW2, especially since France was to mobilize rapidly, many of the Lebel's were broken out of storage for emergency issue. These rifles were also used by many other nations, both allied and French Colonial possessions. During WW1 the Germans had amassed a large amount of the Lebel's and issued them to rear echelon units. Nearly 3,500,000 Lebel rifles and variants were made between 1887 and 1920. Some of these rifles were encountered in conflicts in the Middle East and Afghanistan in recent years. 4 1 Quote
Fritz Posted January 31, 2022 Posted January 31, 2022 I had one of these from the maker in St. Étiènne many years ago. Is there something missing from the breech in the 4th picture? 3 Quote
Gildwiller1918 Posted February 1, 2022 Author Posted February 1, 2022 Yeah a small screw, I have a replacement on order as well as a few other items. 3 Quote
Gildwiller1918 Posted January 29, 2023 Author Posted January 29, 2023 I have finally gotten all the parts and a sling for the rifle now. Took awhile, but all complete versions of this rifle are hard to come by, and are quite expensive. Mine was a cheaper version as it lacked some items, but a better deal for me overall. 4 Quote
72 usmc Posted January 29, 2023 Posted January 29, 2023 One of my favorite wants, but never had the cash to buy a nice example. A fair one is approaching $1000-$1600 in the U. S. market. Yeps, an amazing feat to actually have one. Well beyond most. An amazing step forward in rifle design, smokeless powder. Just the other day I was watching Youtube on my yard long new Flat tv the neighbor gave me. No cash for cable, but the Roku device allows me view youtube on TV. A step out of the dark age, it is really nice to see movies and clips on a big 36" screen instead of a small mac from 2006. What a rifle! Here is one of the best information Forgotten Weapons videos (37 Min. long) and its on the Lebel. Also a nice source is Ian Mccollum's now out of print again book, Chassepot to FAMAS French Military Rifles 1966-2016. It is in English. If you read French there are many nice sources. 4 Quote
Gildwiller1918 Posted January 29, 2023 Author Posted January 29, 2023 Thanks for the video link, have you seen C&Rsenal's videos? They have a entire WW1 weapons series. The Lebel episode is quite good. 3 Quote
72 usmc Posted January 29, 2023 Posted January 29, 2023 Yes. The bayonets are a dime a dozen, unlike the rifles. The French Lebel Rosalie came first with a long blade and nickle-silver handle. Later in an effort to conserve nickel the French produced the Rolsalie with a brass handle lacking the curved quillion. Then around 1935 the French arsenal modified the old Lebel bayonets by cutting quillions and shortening the blade. Both versions fit the Lebel and Berthier long rifles. Bayonets and vintage French ammunition is commonly found in the U.S. while nice examples of Lebels are very hard to come by. Quote From 1886 till 1916: Nickel steel handle, hooked quillion, a bit over 25 inches long overall. 1916 - 1935: Same as above but without the quillion and with a brass handle. Many older bayonets had the quillions removed. 1935 through WWII: same as above, but shortened to 18 inches. Many older bayonets were also shortened. Some photos of my dogs for my many Berthiers... 1916 ammo 8mm Lebel, and later packets of 8 rounds to load into a Lebel tube dated 1939: 4 Quote
72 usmc Posted January 29, 2023 Posted January 29, 2023 Does that fine lebel have an N marking ? Ethopian rotten garbage wall hangers with sewer pipe barrels- no blue (Lebels) are at current crazy values: And to think back in 1965 at the Woolworths store in downtown Milwaukee, located below the Gimbels store, they had 50 gallon drums full of surplus junk rifles at$ 12. Your pick. All the same price. What did I pick? Well, a Mannlicher M95 long rifle and left the Lebels and Gew 98s... Stupid is as stupid does... a slight oversight in my youth. I wanted the longest odd ball rifle I could find to hang on my room's wall. I still have the M95. And now I wish it would have been one of those ugly Lebels. PLEASE< How about some close up photos of the inside action and movement of the ramp and loading chamber area? 4 Quote
Gildwiller1918 Posted January 29, 2023 Author Posted January 29, 2023 Thanks for posting some of your items. I will post some images of the inside action in a day or two. The rifle is at a machinist shop, I am working with them to make a trench periscope replica for this rifle, I have the original periscope and am about 75% done with it so far. 4 Quote
Gildwiller1918 Posted January 29, 2023 Author Posted January 29, 2023 I bought my Lebel from RTI, it was a "B" grade marked down to $799. Luckily I know a few vendors in Europe that I got the parts I needed to complete the rifle, still cheaper than their "A" graded ones. I will be getting around to the Austrian M95's soon, still working on the Dutch versions. I do have a Remington made Mosin Nagant on the way now as well. 3 Quote
Gildwiller1918 Posted January 29, 2023 Author Posted January 29, 2023 I also have the early nickel handled bayonet, and the later cut down version. I also have the scabbard and leather carrier for long version as well. I would like to get the other variants. 3 Quote
Fritz Posted January 30, 2023 Posted January 30, 2023 There were also yellow brass, copper brass and steel handles. 3 Quote
72 usmc Posted January 30, 2023 Posted January 30, 2023 Yes Fritz, as always your knowledge base is amazing, I have not yet found a cast iron example at any gun shows. Those are a hard find. Top one is iron handle. see this reference sticky & photo source https://www.gunboards.com/threads/lebel-bayonet-reference-sticky.239830/#post-1938840 for those that want detailed information see Patricks comments also maybe pages 197-205 in Chassepot to FAMS, McCollum (2019,2021). His chapter on the Lebel rifle is the best in English. 4 Quote
72 usmc Posted January 30, 2023 Posted January 30, 2023 Thanks Gildwiller 1918. I would be interested in a review of the rifle's condition and especially the barrel review and a photo or two. Was your stock cracked? How many parts were missing? What is the condition of the loading tube, interior of the barrel, and was the bolt complete? Did you take any as arrived and after clean up photos? In America it is strange how many bayonets are at stores and shows, but the actual rifle is a very hard find and a true expensive endeavor. In contrast Berthiers and Mas 36 are always seen. 4 Quote
Gildwiller1918 Posted January 30, 2023 Author Posted January 30, 2023 The Lebel rifle listed above had the following parts missing. The rear sight slide and screw stop, internal magazine spring and stop, screw on side of receiver. Items that were damaged, butt stock had a good size chuck missing towards the butt plate, the front barrel band had the stacking rod broken off and the lever that controls the loading/magazine cut off was broken off. Fortunately I found a replacement buttstock, a sling, and the remaining parts in just under a year. But it took some serious searching as Lebel parts are not easy to come by in the US. Overall the condition of the rifle was not bad, very dirty, and the receiver had some pitting, but I was also fortunate enough to find a better condition one as well. The stock has a minor crack towards the front band towards the bottom where the tube magazine is. The fore stock wood has been cleaned, the butt stock has not been yet. 3 Quote
Gildwiller1918 Posted January 31, 2023 Author Posted January 31, 2023 Another interesting item I noticed was that on the new butt stock, the rifle number is 87407, the receiver is 88457, not far off for a replacement! 3 Quote
Gildwiller1918 Posted January 31, 2023 Author Posted January 31, 2023 USMC, if you ever buy a Lebel fixer upper, I will help you out on the parts if you like. I do have to say this is one of my favorite rifles, and I am glad I got it when I did as they are only going up in value. 3 1 Quote
72 usmc Posted January 31, 2023 Posted January 31, 2023 Thank you for those pictures. Unfortunately they are now way beyond my means, unless a club member dies and his family would give me one cheep. The inside looks better than I would have thought. I want to paste those into my note book on Lebels. 4 Quote
Gildwiller1918 Posted January 31, 2023 Author Posted January 31, 2023 Paste away, if you want any other pictures, let me know. 3 Quote
72 usmc Posted January 31, 2023 Posted January 31, 2023 Not sure this is allowed, but this one is bad news on the internal parts. Sort of a $400 rifle. NOT $ 1500. Box opening video. r For pictures only source https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWnO9M-TrH4 Here is a photo documentation from libertytreecollector's reference library: https://www.libertytreecollectors.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=600&idcategory=82 Worth a read. The 1886/93 Lebel: France's Great War Masterpiece by GARRY JAMES posted on January 29, 2021 American Rifleman https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-1886-93-lebel-france-s-great-war-masterpiece/ A video redo., not as good as the Mc Collum video... Small Arms of WWI Primer 001*: French Lebel Mle. 1886 M by C&Rsenal 4 Quote
Gildwiller1918 Posted January 31, 2023 Author Posted January 31, 2023 Whew that is rough looking Lebel! And definitely not worth $1500 3 Quote
Fritz Posted February 2, 2023 Posted February 2, 2023 Soak the cracks in the stock repeatedly in linseed oil, and polish off. It will expand in time and strengthen the wood. Otherwise a spot of lime in the crack, pressing together and removing the excess should make a great difference. 3 Quote
Fritz Posted February 16, 2023 Posted February 16, 2023 The Lebel which I got in 1990 was in super condition, had probably come from an old museum in the DDR, one hole had been bored just above the receiver. Unfortunately parted with this and my Berthier around 1999. I also had the Berthier carbine. 3 1 Quote
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