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US WW1 and WW2 Brodie Helmets and Maker Stamps


leon21

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Here we have another M1917 helmet marked ZA 189 has no liner but still has a chinstrap owned by a soldier of the 78th Division.

Photo's from other sources.

ZA 189 (1).jpg

ZA 189 (2).jpg

ZA 189 (3).jpg

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Here we have another US made M1917 helmet stamped ZA 181 still has the original liner and chinstrap.

Photo's from other sources.

ZA 181(1).jpg

ZA 181 (2).jpg

ZA 181 (3).jpg

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The M1917A1 Helmets or Kelly helmets had the canvas type chinstrap, the leather chin straps were only used on the WW1 versions. Initially, existing stocks of the WW1 M1917 helmets were refurbished until new helmets were made. McCord Radiator company got the contract to design and produce the new helmet. By 1939 the M1917A1 the "new" helmet was ready to go, but it did not last long. In 1942, the M1 helmet began to replace the M1917A1, however some troops still wore the older helmet until enough of the new ones could be found. 

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Yes your quite right Gildwiller, don't know why I thought they had a leather one, must have looked at to many ww1 helmets lately.

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Not a problem, you are doing fantastic posting the variations of the helmets, keep up the good work. 

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Here is another US M1917 Helmet, minus liner and chinstrap marked "ZC 188".

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Another M1917, this one has the liner but no chinstrap. On the outside shell is the insignia for the US 27th Infantry Division in red paint. 

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Another M1917, no liner, only the remnants of the wool pad remain, no chinstrap either. The exterior has been painted a camo pattern with the North Russian Expedition insignia on the front. Both the camo paint and insignia are not original to the helmet, but it is how I got it. For helmets that portray extremely rare or hard to find units, they all have been faked in some fashion, do your research before buying. 

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Another M1917, marked "ZD 194", has the liner and partial chinstrap. 

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  • 3 months later...

Hi, I'd like to show this helmet shell that I have for quite some years. I bought it in Holland, and never gave it much attention. The liner is missing, though some traces show it once had an MK2 liner. It has 1943 dated chin strap lugs and mk3 elastic chin strap. So my guess was a late war MK2 helmet shell.

Manufacturing quality is not what I would expect from a ww2 helmet though. The helmet is non magnetic, but the brim is magnetic. It also has a stamp "ZH17" which, thanks to this great forum, I now know points towards a US M1917 shell. Could that be it? What could be the history of such a helmet? Refurbished in or after 1943? Very interested to know what you think. 

I placed pictures below. 

Clement

 

helm0.jpg

helm1.jpg

helm2.jpg

helm3.jpg

helm4.jpg

helm5.jpg

helm6.jpg

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Welcome to the forum Kievit, looking at your helmet I think your first assumption is correct that it may be a WW2 shell and not a WW1 shell

Looking at the stamp marks the numbers are to far apart from the letters and the  number 1 is to far apart from the number 7 so I think there

should be two more numbers in between the 1 and 7 that have not stamped properly, the ZH could be a Batch code number as some makers had

a two letter Batch code some starting with the letter Z during the late 1930's.

One Manufacturer in mind would be HBH = Harrison Bros &  Howson of Sheffield, so it's possible the date of your helmet could be 1937 and was

later refurbished in 1943 with new chin strap lugs new liner and chin strap, But I could be wrong.

Hope this helps.

 

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Thank you very much Leon! I very much appreciate your detailed answer. Helps a lot.

To me that really sounds like a very logical explanation & one that would make most sense, especially the batch code part, the manufacturer maybe also. 

Let me share one doubt I still have. The ZH17 are hammered in real hard. So hard that it even shows at the upper side of the helmet. Actually 4 bumps show at the top. I realize the foto that I included was taken from right above the ZH17 stamping so doesn't quite show that relief the hammering caused. So I made two more pictures from the side. One from the ZH19 stamping on the bottom, and one from the top side of the helmet, that show the bumps.

(And in the front of the helmet the same hammering was done: 4 bumps but I can't get them quite right on a picture, only the Z).

Maybe that would indicate at least that the ZH17 is 'just' a hammered in batch code, which by pure coincidence is very similar to a US M1917 stamp code. Then, the manufacturer is hidden somewhere else under all that paint. Would that make sense?

Thanks again for your time! Clement

PS. don't mind the liner. I put in a spare one that I had so it wouldn't look so empty.

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I was most interested in your 4th photo, looks like the word Tarta-6-Nan, I thought this may have been made in India with the crude stamping

but not 100% sure that they made helmets, looks like it's had a good belt with a hammer?

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Thanks, I researched the name "Tartagnan" earlier. It appears to be a French name or nickname, not very common though.

Meanwhile I found this posting of Gildwiller1918 which appears to have more or less the exact same type of stamp, just less punched. It has ZH42. Mine has ZH17 in the same style and numbers and in the same area of the helmet.

 

Clément

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Yes it looks the same type and same spacing, strange it was refurbished in 1943, the Americans were using the M1 helmet by then so did they sell

surplus Brodie helmets to another country ? or has someone messed about with this helmet shell? I'd been interested in what Gildwiller thinks.

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Hello Kievit, It does appear this helmet started its life as a WW1 era US helmet, after that I can't say. The first thought that came to mind was that this may be a post WW2 Dutch helmet, or possible even Greek as they wore similar helmets. However those were usually British made. There are some instances of the US using WW1 era helmets as the "Kelly helmet" until new shells were made. In 1936 the US started retrofitting existing M1917 shells into what would be the 1917A1 Kelly Helmet which was put into service in 1939. 

It is also possible this helmet was messed with at some point, before the market had good copies of WW1/WW2 helmets, collectors and reenactors would sometimes modify existing examples to meet their needs. 

 

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Thanks Leon21 and Gildwiller1918 for your answers! So, the mystery is when 1943 chin strap lugs ended up on an M1917 helmet.
I understand now it's not a common thing as I hoped. From the paint on the helmet and lugs I can say it was done at the same time as its last repaint.
For future reference on the forum I'll add two pictures of these lugs. They used copper rivets which are a bit larger than regular. Maybe someone will encounter something similar in the future.
Thanks again for your answers and time in helping me to solve this puzzle! It was very much appreciated.
Clément 

 

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Here's two photo's I've come across before were copper rivets  were used on dated chin strap lugs both were on British made helmets.

1st - We have a 1941 lug on a 1942 dated helmet.

2nd - We have a 1942 lug on a 1943 dated helmet were copper rivets were used.

Only seen them were the chin strap lugs were dated, but the lugs on your helmet are different to the British lugs, to read the date on yours

you  look from  the rim to the centre of the helmet, were the British lugs you read the date looking from the centre  to the rim.

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Thanks Leon21. I too have seen dates on these lugs most often the way your pictures show them.

Good to see that copper rivets were used. Thanks for these pictures! Clément

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Here we have another M1917 helmet stamped ZC 24 still has it's liner and chin strap in good condition.

Photo's from other sources.

ZC 24 (1).jpg

ZC 24 (2).jpg

ZC 24 (3).jpg

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Here's another M1917 helmet stamped ZC 200 still has it's liner but no chin strap has 9th Corps Emblem on front of helmet.

Photo's from other sources.

ZC 200 (1).jpg

ZC 200 (2).jpg

ZC 200 (3).jpg

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Great pictures. It appears that the letters and numbers in the US M1917 were punched in by hand and one by one, while on the British brodies the stamp is much more regular. On the ZC188 at the top of this page the last 8 even appears to be upside down, nice detail.

In the meanwhile I found another 1943 shell with the date on the lug 'upside down'. I'll post some pictures of  british mk2 brodies in the british thread.

Clément

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Yes in the WW1 US helmets, I have seen very clean heat stamps and ones like you stated where it appears it was done by hand instead. Not much is known about the manufacture process of the individual companies. My guess is that they were cranking them out as quickly as possible. 

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Leon, the helmet listed above in which you said has a 4th division emblem is not correct. The helmet has the emblem of the US 9th Corps, which was formed in November of 1918 and demobilized in May of 1919. It was a subordinate unit to the US Second Army. After the war it was more or less mothballed until WW2, when it was reactivated in 1940. 

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Thanks Gildwiller for the information I stand corrected. :thumbsup: Have now corrected.

Here's another one you might know who this emblem below belongs to.

DF 39 (1).jpg

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