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How to tell if a Iron Cross 1st and 2nd Class is Real or Fake?


Arran Sinclair

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Wats irritating is that i bought both of these from a Norwegian seller that has been buying and selling German militaria since the frist half of the 90s, and I thought he's name and experience would mean the original wares..

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I would't go quite that drastic.

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maker looks like 583, never came across that maker before which is another bad sign.  

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If you are not convinced, you should send the item back and get a refund, to which you are legally entitled.

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Known makers of EK:

1 Deschler & Sohn, München
2 C.E. Juncker, Berlin
3 Wilhelm Deumer, Lüdenscheid
4 Steinhauer & Lück, Lüdenscheid
5 Hermann Wernstein, Jena-Lobstedt
6 Fritz Zimmermann, Stuttgart
7 Paul Meybauer, Berlin
8 Ferdinand Hoffstätter, Bonn
9 Liefergemeinschaft Pforzheimer Schmuckhandwerker, Pforzheim
10 Förster & Barth, Pforzheim
11 Großmann & Co., Wien
12 Frank & Reif, Stuttgart
13 Gustav Brehmer, Markneukirchen
14 L.Christian Lauer, Nürnberg
15 Friedrich Orth, Wien
16 Alois Rettenmeyer, Schwäbisch Gmünd
17 unbekannt
18 Karl Wurster K.G., Markneukirchen
19 E. Ferdinand Weidmann, Frankfurt am Main
20 C.F. Zimmermann, Pforzheim
21 Gebrüder Godet & Co., Berlin
22 Boerger & Co., Berlin
23 Arbeitsgemeinschaft für Heeresbedarf i.d. Graveur- u. Ziselierinnung, Berlin
24 Arbeitsgemeinschaft der Hanauer Plakettenhersteller, Hanau
25 Arbeitsgemeinschaft der Graveur-, Gold- und Silberschmiedeinnungen, Hanau
26 B.H. Mayer, Pforzheim
27 Anton Schenkl, Wien
28 Eugen Schmiedehäusler, Pforzheim
29 Hauptmünzamt Berlin
30 Hauptmünzamt Wien
31 Hans Gnad, Wien
32 Wilhelm Hobacher, Wien
33 Friedrich Linden, Lüdenscheid
34 Wilhelm Annetsberger, München
35 F.W. Assmann & Söhne, Lüdenscheid
36 Bury & Leonhard, Hanau
37 Adolf Baumeister, Lüdenscheid
38 unbekannt
39 Rudolf Berge, Gablonz
40 Berg & Nolte, Lüdenscheid
41 Gebrüder Bender, Oberstein
42 Biedermann & Co., Oberkassel bei Bonn
43 Julius Bauer & Söhne, Zella-Mehlis
44 Jakob Bengel, Idar-Oberstein
45 Franz Jungwirth, Wien
46 Hans Doppler, Wela Oberdonau
47 Erhardt & Söhne A.G., Schwäbisch-Gmünd
48 Richard Feix, Gablonz
49 Josef Feix & Söhne, Gablonz
50 Karl Gschiermeister, Wien
51 Eduard Görlach & Söhne, Gablonz
52 Gottlieb & Wagner, Idar-Oberstein
53 Glaser & Söhne, Dresden
54 unbekannt
55 J.E. Hammer & Söhne, Geringswald
56 Robert Hauschild, Pforzheim
57 Karl Hensler, Pforzheim
58 Artur Jökel & Co., Gablonz
59 Louis Keller, Oberstein
60 Katz & Deyhle, Pforzheim
61 Rudolf A. Karneth & Söhne, Gablonz
62 Kerbach & Osterhelt, Dresden
63 Franz Klast & Söhne, Gablonz
64 Gottlieb Friedrich Kech & Sohn, Pforzheim
65 Klein & Quenzer, Idar-Oberstein
66 Friedrich Keller, Oberstein
67 Robert H. Kreisel, Gablonz
68 Alfred Knobloch, Gablonz
69 Alois Klammer, Innsbruck
70 Lind & Meyrer, Oberstein
71 Rudolf Leukert, Gablonz
72 Franz Lipp, Pforzheim
73 Franz Manert, Gablonz
74 Carl Maurer & Sohn, Oberstein
75 unbekannt
76 Ernst L. Müller, Pforzheim
77 Hauptmünzamt München
78 Gustav Miksch, Gablonz
79 unbekannt
80 G.H. Osang, Dresden
81 Overhoff & Cle, Lüdenscheid
82 Augustin Prager, Gablonz
83 Emil Peukert, Gablonz
84 Carl Poellath, Schrobenhausen
85 Julius Pietsch, Gablonz
86 Paulmann & Crone, Lüdenscheid
87 Roman Palme, Gablonz
88 Werner Redo, Saarlautern
89 Rudolf Richter, Schlag bei Gablonz
90 August F. Richter KG, Hamburg
91 Josef Rössler & Sohn, Gablonz
92 Josef Rückert & Sohn, Gablonz
93 Richard Simm & Söhne, Gablonz
94 unbekannt
95 Adolf Scholze, Grünwald
96 unbekannt
97 unbekannt
98 Rudolf Souval, Wien
99 Schwertner & Cie, Granz Eggenberg
100 Rudolf Wächter & Lange, Mittweida
101 Rudolf Tam, Gablonz
102 Philipp Turks, Wien
103 August Tam, Gablonz
104 Heinrich Ulbrichst, Kaufing
105 Heinricht Vogt, Pforzheim
106 Gebrüder Schneider, Wien
107 Karl Wild, Hamburg
108 Arno Wallpach, Salzburg
109 Walter & Henlein, Gablonz
110 Otto Zappe, Gablonz
111 Ziemer & Söhne, Oberstein
112 Argentorwerke Rust & Hetzel, Wien
113 Hermann Aurich, Dresden
114 Ludwig Bertsch, Karlsruhe
115 unbekannt
116 Funcke & Brüninghaus, Lüdenscheid
117 Hugo Lang, Wiesenthal
118 August Menz & Sohn, Wien
119 unbekannt
120 Franz Petzl, Wien
121 unbekannt
122 J.J. Stahl, Straßburg
123 Hassinger & Co., Straßburg
124 Rudolf Schanes, Wien
125 Eugen Gauss, Pforzheim
126 Eduard Hahn, Oberstein
127 Moritz Hausch AG, Pforzheim
128 S.Jablonski & Co., Posen
129 Fritz Kohm, Pforzheim
130 Wilhelm Schröder & Co., Lüdenscheid
131 Heinrich Wander, Gablonz
132 Franz Reischauer, Idar-Oberstein
133 unbekannt
134 Otto Klein, Hanau
135 Julius Moser, Oberstein
136 J.Wagner & Sohn, Berlin
137 J.H. Werner, Berlin
138 Julius Maurer, Oberstein
139 Hymmen & Co., Lüdenscheid
140 Schauerte & Hohfeld, Lüdenscheid
141 Sohni, Heubach & Co. Oberstein
142 A.D.Schwerdt, Stuttgart
LDO:
L/10 Deschler & Sohn, München
L/11 Wilhelm Deumer, Lüdenscheid
L/12 C.E. Juncker, Berlin
L/13 Paul Meybauer, Berlin
L/14 Friedrich Orth, Wien
L/15 Otto Schickle, Pforzheim
L/16 Steinhauer & Lück, Lüdenscheid
L/17 Hermann Wernstein, Jena-Lobstedt
L/18 B.H. Mayer, Pforzheim
L/19 Ferdinand Hoffstätter, Bonn
L/21 Förster & Barth, Pforzheim
L/22 Glaser & Sohn, Dresden
L/23 Julius Maurer, Oberstein
L/24 Fritz Zimmermann, Stuttgart
L/25 A.E. Kachert, Wien
L/26 Klein & Quenzer, Idar-Oberstein
L/50 Gebrüder Godet & Co., Berlin
L/51 E.Ferdinand Weidmann, Frankfurt am Main
L/52 C.F. Zimmermann, Pforzheim
L/53 Hymmen & Co., Lüdenscheid
L/54 Schauerte & Höhfeld, Lüdenscheid
L/55 Rudolf Wächter & Lange, Mittweida
L/56 Funcke & Brüninghaus, Lüdenscheid
L/57 Boerger & Co., Berlin
L/58 Rudolf Souval, Wien
L/59 Alois Rettenmeyer, Schwäbisch-Gmünd
L/60 Gustav Brehmer, Markneukirchen
L/61 Friedrich Linden, Lüdenscheid
L/62 Werner Redo, Saarlautern
L/63 G.H. Osang, Dresden
L/64 F.W. Assmann & Söhne, Lüdenscheid
L/65 Franke & Co., Lüdenscheid
L/66 A.D. Schwerdt, Stuttgart

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Its several years ago I bought them, I just rediscovers them now after moving to a new house. 

The ek second class i was told that it came from a big lot that was found in Germany  up in an attic. There was cases full of nos ek 2 class that was never given out. 

Someone hid it away during  the final months / weeks of the war and it was then rediscovered somwere in the year 2000's

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That seller is probaly the only seller in Norway of collectibles of ww2, and the only one that has been active for a greate number of years, I'm just telling that as a warning to others that might buy from him.

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Personally I'm not that worried about the ring is not completely welded together as I can see even Helmut Weitze sells ek2 with the same ring problem, but I can't justify the stamp. 

 

 

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The Iron Cross called  the "round 3" differs from the normal version in the fact it is round on top instead of flat. They are much scarcer to find than the standard versions so are more valuable and made by by Deschler & Sohn. 

round 3.JPG

round 3

standard.jpg

standard 3 

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Did all of the round 3 have a stamp on the ring or were there some that was not ? 

The reason i ask is becouse i have a seller that sells an round 3 with an "unclear ring stamp" and therfor sold as unstamped. 

Is it with Iron Crosses the same way as with mumei samurai swords that experts can attribute an unmarked work to a sertain makers? 

Im not only talking about the round 3 here but as in general?

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Yes you will come across round 3's without stamps on the ring as you would with standard Iron Crosses, with the only way to tell who the maker is, is by judging it by it's characteristics and comparing it to other known makers.    

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  • 1 month later...

840214CC-518E-47A4-BBA0-E377672BC8C8.thumb.jpeg.4acf7678497be757693b23de8cff3ae5.jpegHi everyone, new to the page and I’m just looking for some opinions. My dad passed away last year aged 86, he gave me this many years ago. He told me his uncle returned from the war and gave it to him on his return and I’m pretty confident he wouldn’t deceive me !! It’s magnetic, I couldn’t find any makers markings on the cross or clasp only the identifying things are on the inside of the box. Pretty sure you’ll confirm the clasp doesn’t belong in the box. Thanks in advance840214CC-518E-47A4-BBA0-E377672BC8C8.thumb.jpeg.4acf7678497be757693b23de8cff3ae5.jpeg840214CC-518E-47A4-BBA0-E377672BC8C8.thumb.jpeg.4acf7678497be757693b23de8cff3ae5.jpeg840214CC-518E-47A4-BBA0-E377672BC8C8.thumb.jpeg.4acf7678497be757693b23de8cff3ae5.jpegA157157D-5B00-4DED-8EEE-D1DB92B2560C.thumb.jpeg.0a368a66ae485a985a9e79a495ace868.jpeg81D5DE95-F056-421B-A871-A81DEB7DA569.thumb.jpeg.ab123f643ebaafce7f89ea7b61e02458.jpeg44436798-1CF0-4ED6-96AB-F353607A11DF.thumb.jpeg.5cbba7c39c589c793bde03bf5187c94c.jpeg98F67584-04F0-4119-A76F-B235FE76F41B.thumb.jpeg.920f2bb9e673ecbbdd8d079282198ce2.jpeg 

3D4764FD-C920-4FCA-9FC0-F40D629613F3.jpeg

3E8FDD12-90BB-4F65-994F-C8C668991758.jpeg

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Hi Paul, again this Iron cross appears to be a post war Souval. However as I have said before the jury is still out on these crosses as Souval certainly made them during the war, the retainer is the thing which collectors can not agree. The wire type retainers are agreed to be wartime but the type you have posted is considered to be post war, some collectors believe them to be war time. Up until now no definitive answer is known. I don't doubt for a moment your uncle brought it back from the war as even the post war Souvals were produced just after the war. You are correct the clasp does not belong in the box and would be issued in it's own presentation box.        

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Good evening and thanks for all the work you put in here.  I was looking at the piece below and was wondering if you had any thoughts.

Not enough info for me to make a decision unfortunately so wondering if there is anything you could add here.  It is maker marked however.  I was mostly concerned with how fresh the paint appeared initially.

58959d.jpg

58959.jpg

58959c.jpg

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Looks like a good Gustav Brehmer maker marked 13, this is the first type, later crosses by Gustav Brehmer had the swastika on a slight pedestal.   

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  • 2 months later...

I have a 1813 n on back side it says 1914 cross and the hasp says M&S can anyine tell me if its real or fake

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  • 1 month later...

Greetings all, I'm hoping someone can help me verify the authenticity of an Iron Cross First Class and Iron Cross Second Class. Both were purchased from online dealers around 1998/1999. I did not retain the seller info.  Both items have been in climate-controlled storage for the past 24 years, and the condition is the same as when originally purchased.

I'll start with the First Class award. No documentation or case was included in the purchase, and no provenance was provided. The center is magnetic.

 

EK_1st_Class_01.jpg

EK_1st_Class_02.jpg

EK_1st_Class_03.jpg

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EK_1st_Class_06.jpg

EK_1st_Class_07.jpg

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EK_1st_Class_09.jpg

EK_1st_Class_10.jpg

EK_1st_Class_11.jpg

EK_1st_Class_12.jpg

EK_1st_Class_13.jpg

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Here is the Iron Cross Second Class award. As mentioned above, this was purchased from an online seller around 1998/99. The award document was included with the purchase - for whatever that is worth, but no provenance was provided outside of that. Maker's mark stamped in ring - "113". The center is magnetic. The black paint is immaculate on both sides, and the ribbon looks like it was made yesterday. Again, any help verifying the authenticity is appreciated.

 

Iron_Cross_2nd_Class_01.jpg

Iron_Cross_2nd_Class_02.jpg

Iron_Cross_2nd_Class_03.jpg

Iron_Cross_2nd_Class_04.jpg

Iron_Cross_2nd_Class_05.jpg

Iron_Cross_2nd_Class_06.jpg

Iron_Cross_2nd_Class_07.jpg

Makers_Mark_113_01.jpg

Makers_Mark_113_02.jpg

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Iron cross first class is fake, poor detail and artificial ageing. Iron Cross 2nd class looks OK the maker mark is for Hermann Aurich of Dresden 

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On 03/06/2023 at 14:45, Kenny Andrew said:

Iron cross first class is fake, poor detail and artificial ageing. Iron Cross 2nd class looks OK the maker mark is for Hermann Aurich of Dresden 

Thank you Kenny for your input on this. I appreciate it. For the first class award, can you elaborate on what you mean when you say "poor detail"? Also, is there any indication as to what kind of copy/fake this is? I know little about the counterfeit market and would like to understand as much about the medal as possible. Thanks again for any insights you can provide.

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Huge thank you to all the experts in this thread and site in general! This has been a very interesting read and here I am with a cross for your review,

Magnetic core - yes

Solid rings - yes, small one damaged

3 piece construction - yes

Maker stamps - no

The 'ribbing' on the internal corners concerns me the most

Images below:

IBjWF5w.jpg

lvbbVWP.jpg

LA2g1zL.jpg

gjFkulx.jpg

 

Thanks again!

-RR

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1 hour ago, Ex_Collector said:

Thank you Kenny for your input on this. I appreciate it. For the first class award, can you elaborate on what you mean when you say "poor detail"? Also, is there any indication as to what kind of copy/fake this is? I know little about the counterfeit market and would like to understand as much about the medal as possible. Thanks again for any insights you can provide.

L/54 with the stamp above the retaining catch is a known copy unfortunately, the quality of the beading is not what you would expect to see on a private purchase award. 

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1 hour ago, Rich_26 said:

Huge thank you to all the experts in this thread and site in general! This has been a very interesting read and here I am with a cross for your review,

Magnetic core - yes

Solid rings - yes, small one damaged

3 piece construction - yes

Maker stamps - no

The 'ribbing' on the internal corners concerns me the most

Images below:

IBjWF5w.jpg

lvbbVWP.jpg

LA2g1zL.jpg

gjFkulx.jpg

 

Thanks again!

-RR

That's a strange one Rich, don't know if it's just the photos but the frame looks as if it has a chrome finish, is the frame silver? The ribbon appears to be original.  

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