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WW2 Tin Hat - Help With Identification


PAUL BURNS

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Hi.  First time on this site but I was wondering if any one could help me identify this helmet. I brought it some years ago from a Army Surplus shop in Oxford and has been stored in a box for many years.  I found when looking for some other items and wanted to find out about it - who made it and was it used by the civil fire brigade or military fire service.

I found on the chin strap lugs the date 1942 and a stamp to which I have not been able to identify, it looks like a capital 'M' or a bar going across with one short downward bar and two long downward bars. I cannot find any other stamps on the brim of the hat but both chin straps are stamped with the same details.

I have put on some photos of the tin hat and a photo of the chin strap lug to which you can make out the stamp mark.

Any help would be welcome to identify this hat.

Paul Burns.

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Hello and welcome,

You have a Mark Two helmet from the liner type and date on the lugs. I  believe the mark above the date is a three in roman numerals (III), showing that it is a mark three chin strap lug rather than an M. There should be a date and makers stamp on one of the arms of the liner that will tell you who made the liner and when there is a thread on makers marks here to show which company made yours:

I personally think its a civil helmet but I'm no expert so I'd wait for others to comment. 

Regards,

Jack

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Hi Jack.

Many thanks for letting me know about the mark on the chin strap lugs, I did wonder if it was a number 3 , but went for the 'M' instead. I'm going over Christmas to take  the headliner out  and clean up the inside of the helmet to see if there are any other markings on it.

As for the colour, it looks like a rush job  for some thing as there are paint runs all over it, paint has made it's way inside and on the headband.

Many Thanks.

Paul Burns.

 

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Welcome to the forum Paul,

Jack is wright it is a MKII helmet shell with MKIII chin strap lugs it also has a MKIII chin strap, I would be interested in the date of the liner

if you could let us know. Red helmets are used mostly by someone in a fire fighters roll this could be in a civilian or military role like RAF or

Navy or factory fire fighters.

 

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Hi.

Many thanks for the info on this helmet and when I strip down for restoration, I will have a good look for any markings between the helmet and the liner. I have had a look on the liner and under the oil skin nothing there. 

A question to the Forum - If this helmet with the red colour has no historic value, would it be okay to strip it all off and paint it in the correct colour of Green. If it has a historic value , then I don't want to ruin it by changing the colour; I will just carry out a gentile restoration and keep it as it is.

Many Thanks.

Paul Burns.

 

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Hi Paul, if it is a fire helmet you would certainly want to keep it as it is, if it was painted in the sixties by a hippy for example then you could probably repaint it.  It does look like it has had another helmet sitting on top of it, which you can see by the round black mark from the other helmets liner, this could help indicate the paint is period.      

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I wouldn't repaint it, rather use a paintstripper to carefully remove that paint, the underlying original paint may well be intact.

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Hi Gents.

Many thanks for the feedback about this helmet and I shall leave it as it is.

I shall give the inside a good clean as I'm not sure if it's black paint or just dirt, also I shall look for any marks and post the results for every one's interest.

Once again many thanks for the advice and help given.

Cheers.

Paul Burns.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi.

Just a quick update on the restoration of the  helmet. 

The inside was cleaned up and found that the original colour was black, on the rim where the red gloss paint has been chipped off, you can see again black paint.  Still no signs of any manufacturing stamps or personal marks. The headband was bit of a worry as the oilskin had dried out and was very brittle, so care had to be taken when working on this part. When cleaning up the outside you could make out where I.D Marks had been removed from the hat. I would suggest that this was done before painting it red.

What I did to the oil skin, was to apply a leather balsam and gently rubbed it in to the material, this had 4 coats of the balsam and is now soft and flexible to be worked on. On checking the cross strips after cleaning them, all I could find was the hat size of 7.1/4.  Having checked them all over no manufacturing marks at all, the only part left that hasn't been touched is the shoelace which is broken in two.

History.

Well it's not been a flower power/CND hat as it was brought from an Army Surplus shop, the only reason I picked this hat was because it was red.

Taking in all the advice from other experts and range of suggestions and I leave to you to see what thoughts the forum have.

1. Royal Navy hat as they had black hats and painted red as a fire party.

2. Private fire service for factories and businesses.

3. RAF Fire Fighter but they would of had the RAF Blue/Grey colour on the inside or the Red. Colour is Black.

4. Painted Post War in Red as the Cold War/Nuclear threats were starting to cause concerns. It was a Black helmet and was used by Police, Fire Service, Civil Defence,  etc.  Would it have been sent back to the stores as no further use after the war, until the concerns about a nuclear war. Due to the Emergency Planing the helmets could they be reissued to different services, would the Red stand for a Section Leader or the Fire Service. Judging by the way this helmet was painted - a rough job at best as you can see red paint on the headband, on the chin strap and the paint runs. Did they paint this one and then have another 99 left to paint?.

To find out what lies underneath you would have to destroy a history to find the history. I feel that option 4 might be correct and I will leave it alone as it is.

Happy New Year.

Paul Burns.

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I would agree the paint looks post war, the helmet may be a private purchase made helmet by one of the unknown manufacturers hence the lack of

any marks on helmet and liner. factory finished in black most likely used first  by someone in one of the civil defence services.

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