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Help with WW2 AFS/NSF Fireman’s Brodie Mk2 Helmet


TigerSS

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Hi guys, I need some help with a few points regarding this helmet that I have, I already know a good bit of info regarding it but there's  three questions that are a real puzzle to me.

Firstly let me tell you what I know:

WW2 Brodie Mk2

The helmet shell marks are: HBH = Harrison Bros. & Howson 1938-1940 (Brodie Helmet shell Mk 2) Mk2 produced from 1938 – this date is also shown on the chinstrap metal mounting lugs.

The liner shows markings for: J.C.S & W Ltd 1938 (J. Crompton Sons & Webb Ltd) Mk1 Liner size 7

The chap who it was issued to (unfortunately I can’t find out who it was all records destroyed so I am told) must have been initially in the AFS (auxiliary fire service) as the helmet shows that at one stage it had 2 white lines running around it – indicating that that the wearer was a ‘Section Officer’.  Then in 1941 the AFS became the NSF (national fire service) and the colour ranking was changed, it was then that the wearer had to change the colour banding to a single broad maroon colour indicating the rank of ‘Leading fireman’ and put the NSF insignia badge on the front.

Following this chaps progress it looks like he will have been stationed at a ‘Training depot’ hence the rare and unusual badging at the front which reads ‘Divisional Fire Staff’.

You will also notice that the helmet has a number ‘5’ on the front which represents the ‘Fire Force Division’ number which in this case represents ‘Bradford’ in West Yorkshire.

On the inside rim painted in Red it shows the number ‘175’, you will also find this albeit faintly on the inside of the chin strap and under the liner painted faintly on the shell and I am told that this number represents the chaps ‘Brigade Service Number’

Now the questions:

1/ Opposite there is another number stencilled on in white ‘386508’ – but I cannot find out what this number is?

2/ Also if you look at the outer shell it appears that running down the centre line back to front under the paint there once was another broad line painted on it which looks to have been white in colour – what this was I have no idea? 

3/ Exactly opposite the NSF badge (so at the rear of the helmet) there is evidence of 2 small holes (matchstick head size) with centres circa 1½ inch apart - these holes have been filled and looking at them I would say many, many  years ago as the NSF Red banding paint has been painted over them - what could have gone there? - obviously a badge with 2 posts to secure it - but what? - see image 3

Could this be a very early AFS prototype design which had a white stripe going down the middle with the AFS metal badge secured on? - which then was not adopted? and then put back to the AFS design and colours that we know?

 

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Hi Tiger, welcome to the forum. Colin is the man for Brodie helmets, I'm sure he will be able to help 

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Welcome to the forum Tiger, the number stencilled on the inside rim is an identification number for the wearer of the helmet.

I have a NFS helmet myself and mine has the number 595444 stencilled on it, I've seen them on helmets with a number and

the name of the wearer or just the number, some also put their service number on as well.

The wide band over the top of the helmet I've only seen on Civil defence helmets such as District Warden, Rescue Party Officer,

or Stretcher Party Supervisor, as for the two holes not seen that before were they are only seen them on a rim of a helmet so your

guess sounds reasonable, or it could be the wearer put a metal badge of some kind which did not work properly and took it of again

it's hard to say, it's all speculation at best.

    Sorry I can't be more helpful.

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56 minutes ago, leon21 said:

Welcome to the forum Tiger, the number stencilled on the inside rim is an identification number for the wearer of the helmet.

I have a NFS helmet myself and mine has the number 595444 stencilled on it, I've seen them on helmets with a number and

the name of the wearer or just the number, some also put their service number on as well.

The wide band over the top of the helmet I've only seen on Civil defence helmets such as District Warden, Rescue Party Officer,

or Stretcher Party Supervisor, as for the two holes not seen that before were they are only seen them on a rim of a helmet so your

guess sounds reasonable, or it could be the wearer put a metal badge of some kind which did not work properly and took it of again

it's hard to say, it's all speculation at best.

 

Thanks for the reply  leon - so what is the difference between the 6 digit identification number and the 3 digit number what's on there as well?

The white band over the top is a real puzzle as the original colour of the helmet is green and I think that the helmets you refer to 'District Warden, Rescue Party Officer, Stretcher party supervisor' were Black or White - this helmet has never been either colour?

The 'holes' whatever they were for I'm sure must be associated with the stripe over the top and as I said earlier these holes were before the NFS and AFS paint work striping. 

The helmet is a 1938 and the AFS were formed in 1938 so that doesn't leave a lot of time from when the helmet was produced to it being used for the AFS work for it to have been in another service that would be showing the white stripe running over the top (on a green helmet) - whatever that was?

I have tried to find out if there was indeed a wartime service that had a Green helmet with a white stripe - but so far have been unsuccessful, if anyone out there knows anything about this please speak up.

 

 

 

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  That's interesting Tiger because mine is factory finished in black, then repainted green for the Fire Brigade Service.

  Mine is dated 1939 and the black is showing through the green on top of the helmet were it's had most wear.

  The helmets would have been issued already numbered to the person, and recorded so it became a sort of identification

  number for the wearer. Not everybody put their name or service number on their helmets.

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Definitely 99.9% Green inside and out for its original colour.

With the helmet registration number are you meaning each service would have had their own registration or is that 6 digit number a registration number for 'all' the services armed or other wise? - seems a heck of a long number if it was just for the Fire service?

Just another thought re the holes - I am assuming that the holes were facing forward when the helmet was worn (with whatever was mounted there displayed forward) - but given there isn't a correct back or front to the helmet, could this have been some identification badge that was shown rearwards?

Am I correct in assuming that there isn't a back or front to the helmet?

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 I don't think it matters which way round you wear the helmet if there are no badges on it.

The painted stripe looks very shoddily done to me, looks like it's been put on with a brush.

 

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  After further research Tiger I'm now sure the six digit number is as I first thought his service number and not an issue number.

  The red 3 digit number is his issued station number, or Brigade  number some painted them on their helmets.

  Between 1936-1938 when the MK2 was first issued to firemen they were asked to paint their station number on to the front of

  their helmets just above their badge in white paint on a black square back ground for men and blue for women fire fighters.

  When the AFS started the helmets were painted red, those in the London and surrounding area were painted battleship grey, then

  in 1940 they were change to green because they could be seen from  above.

  Below are a couple of examples

ASF%201[1].jpg

Reed(2).jpg

Reed (1).jpg

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Here's another example, this helmet started as a green helmet most likely as a factory fire mans helmet, has an old decal with the

letters FB under the red painted band. later the helmet was painted red most likely as a AFS helmet and had a white stripe painted

over the top of the helmet and possibly a white band round indicating a rank of Chief or Commander, and then re-painted battleship

grey and the band changed to red, then the NFS decal was added later with the area number 39 for Swindon.

Here are a few photo's.

wN2lilRY7OZ4ePybAgzJrQ[1].jpg

1Yhqd9oIh.z8kSB0SjADqA[1].jpg

mM425hF6s38bGRHzgRjcqg[1].jpg

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Leon interesting info, so at least I know now what the numbers represent.   The white stripe is a bit crude as you say in application but obviouse a certain amount of care was taken to get the straight lines, so a bit strange?

Some more info, I have just noticed also that the stripe does not go all the way down to the brim, it stops short to where the badge would have been.  If you are correct in saying that the AFS had red helmets untill 1940 when they changed to Green this means that my helmet which has always been Green must have been in some service from its manufacture in 1938 to 1940 when we know the helmet was used in the AFS in its Green guise with white line banding.

The big question then is what service had a Green helmet with a White stripe going over the top? - the problem would be solved if my helmet was initialy Red as it looks like those early NFS helmets did indeed have the White stripe but my helmet has never been Red?, unless of course they initially trialed a Green helmet and then rejected it? - and then there is the mystery of the badge?

Also do you know Leon at that time - 1938 - if you could get a steel helmet as a private purchase as some military officers did with thier uniform etc?

 

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 A number of private purchase helmets for home front use were produced before and during the war. Those before the war

started were mainly made of steel, those after 1940 due to shortages in steel were made of non metal materials.

Most likely these were made by private firms, they were never maker marked or dated but just had a size 7 mark.

below is an example of one made for the home front market, grey in colour, second helmet made for a army officer liner made

by the firm of Gieves Ltd.  

HELMET%20BANK%204%20510_1200x800[1].jpg

HELMET%20BANK%204%20521_1200x800[1].jpg

pp%20helmet%204[1].jpg

pp%20helmet%202[1].jpg

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Thyanks Leon, thats thrown out then my theory of a private purchase and altered then, as this helmet is clearly 'marked & dated'.

I dont supose you know the post centers on the AFS metal large badge they produced do you? - as that will help in establishing if the filled holes are the same width as the posts on the badge.  No point in measuring a NFS badge as these holes predate NFS time.

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Leon another thought that has just occurred to me, a long shot though:  I know this helmet is dated 1938, could it just have been sat on the shelf till 1940 when the AFS changed to Green helmets from Red? - I know if that was the case we still then have the mystery of then a Green helmet with a White stripe running over the top and the badge of course.

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Looking into the history of the AFS It's most likely that this could have been the case, uniforms were at first a boiler suit, tin helmet

and a pair of wellington boots, and even these did not arrive till 1939 until then men used their own clothes.

In some areas AFS units did not begin service until late 1939, so your helmet could have been issued in 1940 when they changed to green

the bombing raids began August/September 1940 so your helmet could most likely have been  in service at  that time or just after hence

the white bands. The NFS did not begin their service's until August 1941. not sure of the badge post centres.

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So a possible could be that it hung around till 1940 and maybe had the white stripe put on it then?

It could have been the case that at that stage all the AFS helmets were not only going to be Green but were also having the white stripe that was used on the Red helmets carried over to the Green ones, then they decided not to bother as they were going to use the White stripes running around the helmet for their rank structure? - also at that stage they may have then trialled the metal badging on the front which was probably dropped due to the extra work in getting holes put into the helmets along with the cost re the additional badging.

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aber hallo?

 

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Tiger the width of the loops on a AFS badge are 1 inch apart, so it had to be a bigger badge than the AFS badge, if the holes

were for a badge of some sort.

 

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Leon - just had another measure (more critical this time) measurement is 1¼ ins and that is taking into account the curvature.

Also made sure that the 'Red' NFS paint from the NFS rank banding that's on was applied after the holes were soldered up and 'yes' that is the case - so we can definitely say that the holes were made and filled pre August 1941.

I notice that the AFS had 2 types of metal badging of the same design - one with the Kings Crown and one without, which one did you get your post centre measurement  of 1 inch from? - just wondered if one was larger than the other?

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The original badge for the AFS was a buttonhole version which was 28mm in size which had a crown, then there was the cap badge with no crown

which was 39mm to 40mm or 1 and a half inches in size. I've also seen another badge same design as the cap badge but with crown again buttonhole

fitting 28mm in size.

I've been thinking about the white stripe that is under the green paint, to me this suggests that the helmet has been painted the same colour twice as

the white bands of AFS rank were on top of the green paint then over painted in red.

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1 hour ago, leon21 said:

Yes its got to have had another coat of green over the top to have covered the white middle strip and after looking through a magnifying glass you can see that there has been another green paint applied to the outer shell, it shows on the rim chips - but - no other colour further down, just green and its a very similar shade of green.

The inner shell from the rim edge (not the rim) looks like it is the original one coat paint but its got to have had some green colour applied over where the holes that have been soldered up have been - but its very hard to tell, but it must have had.

 

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Badge wise - I keep searching old books and the internet to see if there is anything that shows some other sort of AFS 'solid badge' not just painted badging, but so far nothing, never mind anything that's been mounted on a helmet!

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Still searching old photos for AFS badging or similar with no joy - but just a thought, could the holes have been for some type of small mounting bracket that a light could have been slid on too/attached? - as when they were searching through debris it could have helped with the light? - is that a possibility?

Still thinking though that there must have been some larger AFS badge that went there?

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I've never heard of a light being fixed to a brodie helmet, searching through debris would have been done by wardens and rescue units.

If it was a badge then it may have been a Bradford City Fire Department badge, the role of the ATS volunteer service was to assist the

regular City Fire Services, if these services were issued with the brodie helmet first, then it may have been passed on to a member of the

ATS later who removed the badge filled in the holes and repainted it? It's all speculation of course but another possibility?

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