German Cuff titles

[Kenny Andrew]

In this thread we can discuss German cuff titles. Here is one we just got in, mint text book example of Bevo woven Enlisted/NCO mans cuff title for the 18th Freiwilligen Panzer Grenadier Division 'Horst Wessel'. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division Horst Wessel was formed around a cadre from 1. SS-Infanterie-Brigade (mot) and included mainly Hungarian Volksdeutsche (ethnic Germans) from the Banat. Elements of the division was used for anti-partisan duties in Croatia during training until June 1944 while the rest was in Hungary where the division took part in the occupation of Hungary. Elements of it fought against the Slovak uprising in September and October 1944 as SS-Kampfgruppe Schäfer but it was not until one month later the division fought as a whole unit for the first time, this was against the Red Army south of Budapest.It later fought in Silesia and Bohemia with the survivors surrendering to Czech and Soviet forces at the end of the war. SS cuff titles are heavily faked, on this title you can see the small line of dots on the reverse, the vast majority of original bevo woven cufftitles will have these edging details.   

[Gildwiller1918]

I always wanted to get some of these cuff titles, but have been wary of the abundance of fakes out there. Especially the rarer types.

[Kenny Andrew]

Agreed, SS cuff titles are a nightmare, I only buy them if they come from veterans families.   

[Ian_Kel]

It's quite a long time ago but (probably) the most interesting SS cuff title I ever owned came from yourself, Kenny, an issued and nicely worn condition embroidered RZM pattern "Frw. Legion Norwegen" title. I had popped into your shop on a rare visit to Glasgow and you had it up for sale along with a similar embroidered Frw Legion Niederlande title, it was also used condition but still stitched together in a loop, right off the sleeve. Both were totally original titles - wish I could have bought them both but could only afford one at the time. Really rare things in collecting terms.

[Kenny Andrew]

I think I vaguely remembers those Ian, was that when the shop was in the Virginia Galleries? Those were the days when we could still buy items from the actual veterans themselves, now all sadly gone.     

[Ian_Kel]

I think it was Virginia Street, Kenny? Just a short walk from Argyll St railway station. Probably mid/late-1990's? I mind seeing the titles at your shop in Glasgow then going home to swither about them - It didn't take long, caught the train straight back down next weekend to buy one 'cos I knew the chances of seeing another original issued Norwegian/Dutch cuff title in such good, issued condition, was pretty slim.

[Kenny Andrew]

Yes that was the Virginia Galleries Ian, everything was much easier in those days, better days............   

[Fritz]

On 08/03/2023 at 22:04, Ian_Kel said:

It's quite a long time ago but (probably) the most interesting SS cuff title I ever owned came from yourself, Kenny, an issued and nicely worn condition embroidered RZM pattern "Frw. Legion Norwegen" title. I had popped into your shop on a rare visit to Glasgow and you had it up for sale along with a similar embroidered Frw Legion Niederlande title, it was also used condition but still stitched together in a loop, right off the sleeve. Both were totally original titles - wish I could have bought them both but could only afford one at the time. Really rare things in collecting terms.

Could you post a few photos of your cuff titles?

[Ian_Kel]

Hi Fritz, I only ever owned a small number of cuff titles. I remember having BeVo Westland & Nederland ones, the RZM Norwegian from Kenny plus an officers flatware Der Fuhrer one. Even 30 years ago and although some BeVo woven ones were reasonably common they always were quite expensive things to buy, to an average collector like myself, often beyond my means, never something I ever seriously collected but was interested in.

+ back then when I collected there were a lot of fake titles going around, RZM & BeVo pattern ones (can't remember faked flatware ones but there possibly was?). By no means perfect copies but without access to quality images of the real thing (so many good books produced since then + internet archives) the copies were reasonably convincing and knocked confidence. I mind for a short while there was a collectors fair held in the Mitchel Library in Glasgow, like Kenny's shop, there were often a couple of dealers there who'd let you handle some of the rarer original things, it was a good way to familiarise yourself with how original titles should look and feel (original BeVo ones had a very distinctive feel which at that time was never replicated in the fakes, that may have changed?).

I never took photo's of my few cuff titles, it was before digital photography but I think the Norwegian one I got from Kenny was eventually swapped and made its way into a volunteer collection which can be viewed on the internet (I just pinched this photo from the guys website, hope he doesn't mind...). It was a cracking original title, nice to own, even for a short while.

 

[Fritz]

I once had a cuff title exactly as above, but unfinished and without script, this came from original stocks. I got it from a Polish man living in London, who had bought it on one of his many trips to Germany.

[Ian_Kel]

Aye, my memory from back at that time was that collectors had more confidence in the woven titles rather than the embroidered ones, at that time woven ones hadn't been copied to the same level (that may have changed since then?).

I guess collecting German cuff titles must but be a bit like collecting British Crimea, or Delhi Durbar medals, anyone thinking seriously about collecting them will have to familiarise themselves with the contemporary naming styles, naming variants, overall norms on a regiment by regiment basis before purchasing with confidence?

[Fritz]

The only original cuff title I have so far

[Ian_Kel]

I honestly wouldn't know where to start with Luftwaffe cuff titles, it's not something I'm at all familiar with.

I still haven't fully decided what to collect since I re-caught the bug. I've picked up a medal group and a few split WW1 single medals to a Scottish Battalion I've been interested in for a while and I've been out-bid on a few others at auction (still not fully re-familiarised with today's prices). There's lots of things I see that I'm interested in but know so little about I'd be wary of buying/collecting until I learned a whole lot more about them.

[Kenny Andrew]

That was my fair too Ian, I organised it every year at the Mitchel Theatre in Glasgow until the council banned it because Scottish reenactors were selling swords which were perfectly legal at the time.    

[Ian_Kel]

That was a good fair, Kenny, I think I made it down to two of them before the council stopped them - well worth a train journey south for. I never knew the reason behind it being cancelled, a bit of a shame really (it's not like all collectors are sword wielding maniacs, not all of us anyway ).

[Kenny Andrew]

To be fair Ian, there was an awful lot of swords and some of the people selling them looked quite scary. Don't know if you remember but they had two tables in front of the stage. All the swords were just lying on the tables, not behind glass or on the rear wall. It was the Clan Wallace who were selling some of their duplicates. I actually know Seoras Wallace chieftain of Clan Wallace and he's a really nice guy, as are the other members but I could understand if some people thought they were intimidating as that is the idea. Here's the only clip I could find of them, they took part in the motion pictures Brave Heart, Gladiator, Highlander etc.  Seoras would bring us complete uniforms from the films when they were finished with them, we had Roman cavalry armour from Gladiator, English men at arms uniforms, clearly seen in Brave heart, loads of swords and shields etc , those were the days! There's only five of them in this clip but at the fair there was allot more.